The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant

In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant unpack the paradoxes that shape our lives, relationships, leadership, and decision-making. They explore the Abilene Paradox, the Stockdale Paradox, why groups often make decisions nobody actually wants, and how people balance gritty facts with gritty faith. The conversation moves through spirituality, teamwork, family dynamics, optimism, creativity, and even unexpected debates about Twilight and Pitch Perfect. Funny, thoughtful, and deeply human, this episode examines why two opposite truths can exist at the same time and why learning to live inside that tension may be one of the most important skills we have. 

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

00:00 Intro: Paradoxes, Dad Jokes & Big Questions

04:20 What Is a Paradox?

10:15 The Grace Paradox

19:02 The Abilene Paradox

27:04 How to Avoid the Abilene Paradox

30:45 Guilty Pleasures: Twilight, Pitch Perfect & Eurovision

38:38 Aesthetic Chills & The Big Five

43:08 The Stockdale Paradox Explained

46:48 Gritty Facts vs. Gritty Faith

49:47 Why Leaders Need Paradoxical Thinking

51:04 MLK’s “I Have a Dream” Speech

55:39 Candor Over Consensus

57:32 Comfort vs. Courage

1:02:06 Jim Collins & The Genius of the And

1:06:48 Harvard's Anti-Grade Inflation Policy

1:09:21 How Brené Grades Group Projects

1:13:19 Building the Muscle to Hold Paradox

1:14:54 Personal Paradoxes & The Grace of Getting It Wrong

Lump - Allison Sweet Grant, September 2026, Little, Brown and Co. (Forthcoming book)

Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems - Smith & Lewis, 2022, Harvard Business Review Press (Book)

Toward A Theory of Paradox: A Dynamic Equilibrium Model of Organizing - Smith & Lewis, 2011, Academy of Management Review

Vibe: The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World - Adam Grant, October 2026, Vking (Forthcoming book)

Holding the Tension, The Wisdom of Paradox - Adapted, 2024, from Richard Rohr, The Naked Now: Learning to See as the Mystics See, 2009, Center for Action and Contemplation,

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House

SmartLess (Guest: Stephen Colbert) - Arnett, Bateman & Hayes, SiriusXM/Wondery (Podcast)

The Abilene Paradox: The Management of Agreement - Harvey, 1974, Organizational Dynamics

Eurovision Song-Along: Story of Fire Saga: "Song-Along" - Dobking, D. (Director), 2020, Netflix (Movie clip)

Grease: "You're The One That I Want" - Kleiser, R. (Director) 1978, Paramount Pictures (Movie clip)

Brain Connectivity Reflects Human Aesthetic Responses to Music - Sachs, Ellis, Schlaug & Loui, 2016, Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience

Aesthetic Chills as a Universal Marker of Openness to Experience - McCrae, 2007, Motivation and Emotion

The Stockdale Paradox - Jim Collins, 2017, jimcollins.com

Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap... and Others Don't - Jim Collins, 2001, HarperBusiness (Book)

Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts - Brené Brown, 2018, Random House (Book)

The Discovery of Grounded Theory: Strategies for Qualitative Research - Barney Glaser and Anselm Strauss, 1967, Aldine (Book)

It's 2020, Stop Saying 'Negative Nancy' - Sexist colloquialisms to avoid - Eskreis-Winkler, 2020, An Injustice! (Magazine)

https://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2008/07/nervous-nellie-was-not-a-woman/

The Will and the Ways: Development and Validation of an Individual-Differences Measure of Hope - Snyder et al., 1991, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

An analysis of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's "I Have a Dream" public speech - Duarte, 2011

BE 2.0 (Beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0): Turning Your Business into an Enduring Great Company - Collins and Lazier, 2020, Portfolio/Penguin (Book)

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Marking a major personal milestone, Brené shares what led her to 30 years of sobriety and Adam asks what it taught her about change. From there, they pivot to why Brené can’t tolerate the cringe of The Office —and Adam’s take on how to engage with it. Finally, they deliver a masterclass on the art and science of ending social interactions, sharing the ultimate shortcut to a graceful exit. This is great! 

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - What Are We Talking About Today?

5:00 - Sober AF: Celebrating 30 Years of Sobriety 

16:30 - Grieving for Joy

28:22 - Why Can’t Brené Watch The Office?

43:18 - Loving or Hating Violating the Rules

49:30 - The Art of Leaving Conversations Respectfully

1:03:40 - The Shortcut to a Graceful Exit

1:08:39 - What Adam and Brené Are Watching Now

Gottman Institute - Research and History - Drs. Julie and John Gottman (Founded 1996)

The Love Prescription, Part 2 of 3 - Brene Brown with Drs John and Julie Gottman, 2022, Unlocking Us Podcast

The Power of Vulnerability - Brené Brown, 2010, TED Talk, TEDxHouston

Everything You Think You Know About Addiction Is Wrong - Johann Hari, 2015, TED Talk, TEDGlobalLondon

The Fresh Start Effect: Temporal Landmarks Motivate Aspirational Behavior - Dai, Milkman & Riis, 2014, Management Science

Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead - Brené Brown, 2012, book, Gotham Books

I Love Lucy: Job Switching - Arnaz, 1952, CBS

The Office: Scott's Tots - B.J. Novak, 2009, NBC

Benign Violations: Making Immoral Behavior Funny - McGraw & Warren, 2010, Psychological Science

Office Ladies - Fischer & Kinsey, 2019-present, Audacy (Podcast)

Do Conversations End When People Want Them To? - Mastroianni et al., 2021, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

Politeness: Some Universals in Language Usage - Brown & Levinson, 1987, Cambridge University Press (Book)

Want to Improve Your Relationship? Start Paying More Attention to Bids - Logan Ury, 2026, Gottman Institute

The Virtues of Gossip: Reputational Information Sharing as Prosocial Behavior - Feinberg, Willer, Stellar & Keltner, 2012, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

Jury Duty - Eisenberg & Stupnitsky, 2023-2026, Amazon Prime Video (Television Series) 

Jury Duty Presents: Company Retreat - Eisenberg & Stupnitsky, 2026, Amazon Prime Video (Television Series)

The Madison - 2026, Sheridan, Paramount+ (Television Series)

Landman - Sheridan, 2024-present, Paramount+ (Television Series)

Opening Up Closings - Schegloff & Sacks, 1973, Semiotica

Closing the Conversation: Evidence from the Academic Advising Session - Hartford & Bardovi-Harlig, 1992, Discourse Processes

Collaborative Strategies in Chinese Telephone Conversation Closings - Sun, 2005, Pragmatics

Ending Social Encounters - Albert & Kessler, 1978, Journal of Experimental Social Psychology

Relations in Public: Microstudies of the Public Order - Erving Goffman, 1971, Basic Books (Book)

Sorry for Your Kindness: Japanese Interactional Ritual in Public Discourse - Ide, 1998, Journal of Pragmatics

Getting Down to Business: Talk, Gaze, and Body Orientation During Openings of Doctor-Patient Consultations - Robinson, 1998, Human Communication Research

Negotiating Last-Minute Concerns in Closing Korean Medical Encounters - Park, 2013, Social Science & Medicine

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Do you find yourself defaulting to “Preacher” mode when you’re under pressure, or starting to act like a “Prosecutor” when someone challenges your ideas? Brené and Adam unpack four mental modes – Preacher, Prosecutor, Politician, and Scientist – to explore why we often cling to being right rather than getting it right. In this episode, they discuss how these defensive stances are shaping our response to AI, Brené’s “bounce” method for emotional hypothesis-testing, Adam’s go-to “strategy of small losses,” and ways to stay curious when the stakes are high.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - Introduction and Emoting

3:00 - Thinking Under Thread

11:00 - Testing Your Gut with Small Experiments

22:30 - The Integrity of Commitment: The Making of This Podcast

27:15 - Four Thinking Modes: Scientist, Preacher, Prosecutor, Politician

33:57 - When Opinions Become Beliefs

42:48 - The Social Costs of Changing Our Minds

51:30 - A Missing Mental Model: Teacher

59:30 - Wrap up

Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know - Adam Grant, 2021, Book

Eric Ries on ‘The Lean Startup’ - Eric Ries, 2011, Knowledge at Wharton

Learning Through Failure: The Strategy of Small Losses - Sitkin, 1992, Research in Organizational Behavior

Affective Forecasting - Wilson & Gilbert, 2003, Advances in Experimental Social Psychology

Atlas of the Heart - Brené Brown, 2021 (Book)

The Science of the Deal - Adam Grant, WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast

The Power of Vulnerability - Brené Brown, 2011, TED

The Surprising Habits of Original Thinkers - Adam Grant, 2016, TED

Beliefs Are Like Possessions - Abelson, 2007, Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour

We Need to Talk about Astrology - Adam Grant, 2024, Substack 

The Diplomat - Cahn et al., 2023-present, Let's Not Turn This Into a Whole Big Production & Well Red, Netflix (TV series)

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Brené and Adam discuss the power — and peril — of the words we choose. They dive into two Machiavellian communication tools that often do more harm than good: the "Invisible Army" and "BS Disclaimers". Brené explains why leading with “we” or “but” often comes across as requesting permission to escape accountability, which ultimately sacrifices trust more than anything. Adam explores how these tools can sometimes serve as survival strategies in toxic cultures, leading to a conversation on psychological safety, groupthink, and why precision of language is more important than ever — especially in a world that still judges based on gender and identity.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - Introduction

1:10 - The Invisible Army

15:23 - Speaking Up and Pluribus

21:26 - ‘But’ or Escaping Accountability?

40:59 - Responsibility Versus Accountability

46:22 - Judgment Based on Gender and Identity 

1:01:55 - Takeaways From Today’s Episode

Armored Versus Daring Leadership, Part 2 of 2 - Brené Brown, 2021, Dare to Lead (Podcast)

Getting credit for proactive behavior: Supervisor reactions depend on what you value and how you feel - Grant et al., 2009, Personnel Psychology

Plur1bus - Gilligan et al., 2025 - Present, Sony Pictures; Apple TV+ (TV series)

Does Performance Improve Following Multisource Feedback? A Theoretical Model, Meta-Analysis, and Review of Empirical Findings - Smither et al., 2005, Personnel Psychology

Feedback effectiveness: Can 360-degree appraisals be improved? - DeNisi et al., 2000, Academy of Management Perspectives

What Makes a 360-Degree Review Successful? -

Zenger and Folkman, 2020, Harvard Business Review

The bullshit asymmetry [sic]: the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger - Brandolini, A., 2013, Twitter

The power of powerless speech: The effects of speech style and task interdependence on status conferral - Fragale, 2006, Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes

How Can Women Escape the Compensation Negotiation Dilemma? Relational Accounts Are One Answer - Bowles et al., 2013, Psychology of Women Quarterly

Likeable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve - Fragale, 2024, Doubleday

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House
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In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant dive into the return‑to‑office debate and argue that most conversations are stuck at the wrong level. Instead of asking “How many days in the office?”, they ask, “What problem are you actually trying to solve?”

They explore evidence on hybrid work, weak‑tie innovation, culture and belonging, and why some leaders still cling to “butts in seats” as a proxy for performance. Along the way, they introduce a systems‑thinking “iceberg” tool for getting below the surface of policy fights to the patterns, structures, and mental models driving them.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - What’s Surprising Us About This Podcast? 

1:49 - Return to Office 

22:06 - Challenging Your Return to Office Mental Model

34:15 - Birth Order

40:18 - Tradeoff Between Authenticity and Editing

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/peps.12641

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/worklife-with-adam-grant-the-dos-and-donts/id1346314086?i=1000565464077

https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/workplace/the-real-meaning-of-freedom-at-work-11633704877

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/381373698_Hybrid_working_from_home_improves_retention_without_damaging_performance

https://hbr.org/2014/01/to-raise-productivity-let-more-employees-work-from-home

https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/seven-truths-about-hybrid-work-and-productivity/

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-effects-of-remote-work-on-collaboration-among-Yang-Jaffe/bff6dabad6d264c0f34678a788e20df1b015656d

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2041386614564105

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44605966_The_Strength-of-Weak-Ties_Perspective_on_Creativity_A_Comprehensive_Examination_and_Extension

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~jure/pub/papers/granovetter73ties.pdf

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1802407115

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/361135288_Remote_Collaboration_Fuses_Fewer_Breakthrough_Ideas

https://oms-www.files.svdcdn.com/production/downloads/academic/Disrupting-Science-Upload-2022-4.pdf

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4675401

https://www.atlassian.com/blog/distributed-work/intentional-togetherness-research

https://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to-intervene-in-a-system/

https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/coming-to-a-new-awareness-of-organizational-culture/

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/10720537.2026.2613112?needAccess=true

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1956-04524-000

https://www.nber.org/papers/w30866

https://www.amazon.com/Originals-How-Non-Conformists-Move-World/dp/014312885X

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1506451112

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