The One CA Podcast

• 216: Mic Mulroy: Fogbow and Veteran Humanitarian NGOs

  Today, we welcome Mick Mulroy to discuss Fogbow, his new humanitarian NGO, and their work in Gaza, Sudan, and Syria. We also discuss the growing number of veteran humanitarian organizations getting involved in some of the most distressed places on Earth. --- One CA is a product of the civil affairs association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership. We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.  To contact the show, email us at [email protected]  or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org --- Great news! Feedspot, the podcast industry ranking system rated One CA Podcast as one of the top 10 shows on foreign policy. Check it out at: https://podcast.feedspot.com/foreign_policy_podcasts/ --- Special Thanks to Businside for the sample of Upbeat Background Music - Dance and Electronic Music. Retrieved from: https://youtu.be/1MzdQLTBPPo?si=6cJR4qPYoJUaohh3 --- Rough transcript:  00:00:05    Open Welcome to the 1CA podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with a partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail dot com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes. Today, we welcome Mick Mulroy to discuss Fogbow, his new humanitarian NGO, and their work in Gaza, Sudan, and Syria. We also discuss the growing number of veteran humanitarian organizations getting involved in some of the most distressed places on Earth. So let's get started. 00:00:57    MIC MULROY I've been to Syria several times, but I haven't been there recently and not since all of the Assad regime. So we are looking at the potential for what we as a group who supports humanitarian efforts can do in Syria. 00:01:11    JACK GAINES I hope Syria straightens out. The new government actually does build out something representative for the population and the economy, that it becomes more centrist. I have a lot of hope. I think we all should, 00:01:21    MIC MULROY have a lot of hope. I think we all should, right? It's a good thing, obviously, that Assad's... gone. I mean, hundreds of thousands of deaths are on his hands. So certainly a good thing. The question is whether the incoming crowd who took government control by force are going to be the reformers they say they are, or are they going to go back to their roots? I think the verdict is still out. We should all hope that's the case. I think the incoming or now the team that's in place is a bit more skeptical than the last. You can tell by whether they call them Jelani or Al -Shirar. That's the first indicator when I was doing my rounds on both the Hill Congress and the Trump team. I think there's criticism on just how inclusive they're going to be. But we should all hope that that is the case and that there's an election soon rather than the four years that I think they've been saying. But certainly when it comes to sections that are more related to Assad. They should be reconsidered, and we should look at what we're doing there long term. With the SDF during the defeat of ISIS, the crisis, if we pull out precipitously, both for our partners, the SDF and for the counterterrorism effort, but also our strategy against Iran and Russia to a certain extent, which right now, I think everybody would stay on their backside, especially when it comes to Syria. But when it comes to humanitarian assistance, there is a dire need, for sure. And I think that is something that a lot of groups are looking at, how they can contribute to the rebuilding of Syria and the promotion of a stable country that looks more inward. Their own people vice becoming a client state to actors don't have best interests Syrians like Russia. 00:03:10    JACK GAINES And it's interesting that with their change of government and Lebanon being able to form a government because Hezbollah has their fingers out of the pie right now. I see it as a real strategic opportunity because if Lebanon can get on its foot, Syria can get on its feet, there could be a whole sea change of policy in that region to where Iran's behaviors are balanced, Russia's behavior are balanced, the nations down there can actually rebuild and have a more stable government and a healthier international relationship. I agree with you, 00:03:40    MIC MULROY I agree with you, Derek. I think this is a very big opportunity for the United States. I use boxing analogies because I used to box. I used to coach boxing in the Marine Corps. This is a point where you see your opponent on the ropes, right? You don't back up. You go in and try to end the fight. I know we're not going to end the fight or the competition between us and Russia, but Ayoun is a partner, obviously the former commander of Lebanese Armed Forces. We have supported them for a long period of time. They were a very effective partner with us, and he was the head of it. So that's a huge opportunity right there. Iran, I think, has many strategic mistakes, and they realize that now, and they've seen it both in their major losses with leadership across the board, their capability, and of course in Syria. I mean, their corridor to fund and supply groups like Hamas and Hezbollah has been cut off, and they just don't have the platform that they have. And I think we should capitalize on that. Our policy should be... The promotion of U .S. interests, part of that, I believe, I don't know if we're going to today, is the promotion of democracy and human rights. But certainly, this is an opportunity to do both, our strategic interests and promotion of democratic values. 00:04:55    JACK GAINES With Fog Bow, you have a pretty heady team. Some folks that I've recognized from other efforts, some new. Ambassador Smith is awesome. Roger Thompson, you've got a lot of great people here. 00:05:06    MIC MULROY of great people here. 00:05:08    JACK GAINES By name only. 00:05:08    MIC MULROY name only. 00:05:10    JACK GAINES Well, Chris, he'd be right there with him. 00:05:11    MIC MULROY be right there with him. Yeah, so FABO is primarily veterans, but we have our humanitarian. And the skills that we have that I think are additive to the whole endeavor, which are air delivery. We've done that in Sudan. We've done maritime delivery in Gaza. We know Austere Logistics. We're a very small company, but we really focused on doing that. And that's why I said Roger's the MVP, right? So we have a lot of former SOF folks. We have a lot of... former special operations veterans, whose skill includes all the delivery and the planning and kind of figuring out hard problems where there's no easy solution. But Roger's done Marine Infantry, but he was also a Marine Logistics Officer. So that's why I say he's the MVP, because that's what we do essentially is logistics. Our mission accomplished, it's food delivered, people in need. 00:06:03    JACK GAINES Right. I've had a couple people on talk about the Triton Pier. Some of the challenges with prepping in Cyprus for it, putting the peer out, getting as much aid as possible out, and how the thing broke up. But similar to that, Fogbo seems to be focused on some of the harder areas to reach with aid. It's not a typical aid organization. You go into very restrictive areas that have real security challenges, and you help make sure that humanitarian effort arrives. so that people can continue to survive until conflicts, until crisis or disasters are resolved. That's a tough space to work in. And that's why we get requested to come in. 00:06:42    MIC MULROY to work in. And that's why we get requested to come in. When it comes to the pier, I would say this. We, Sam Mundy, Ricard General, you probably saw on the site, we briefed the last administration several times on the idea of bringing in aid. The Ameritimese, they came up with the JLOPS, the Joint Logistics on the Shore system. To be frank, we didn't think it was the best. Because of the sea states at the time, it could have been done a different way. But we're Americans, and by God, if the U .S. military is going to push up here from Virginia to Gaza, we're going to support it out of pocket. There's not a whole lot of countries that do something. In the United States, it did something, and it might not have been perfect, but it did still over 33 ,000 tons of food into Gaza when it's needed. So that's done, and we're still working to build facilities that can assist the storage of... Critical food aid, medical aid. For NGOs. The other point on how difficult, just to give you a highlight, in Sudan there was a very substantial population that got cut off from ground delivery of food because of that. Primarily the rainy season cut off the roads and the fighting, of course. They were out of food. And all it took was somebody who could come in there and deliver food via air in a very tightly controlled area because of the conflict. And that's where we fit in. That's de -conflicting battle space and airdrops, austere environments. That's what not just people in Fogbo, but that's what the U .S. military is pretty damn good at. So that's what we did for three months, and I think we did a lot of good. And now the situation has changed. It can get ground to leverage. But that's just an example of what we're doing. We're also looking to expand in others. And it's certainly not just about us. There's a lot of groups doing this out there. And if they see a need for our skill set, Give us a call. 00:08:35    JACK GAINES And I'll put it on the show notes as well. I'm sure this must be an adrenaline rush for a lot of the veterans to actually be out in the mix delivering humanitarian supplies, which is a great reward for the skills that a lot of people have. What kind of feedback have you gotten from your logistics teams, your pilots, your air crew, about what it's like to work for the organization? It really comes down to a mission, 00:08:56    MIC MULROY It really comes down to a mission, right? So we're all there because of mission, which is to enable humanitarian operations. We are a private company. That's why it's really incumbent on us to assist NGOs that are out there doing great work. I think the most feedback I've gotten is actually taking the skills that they learned over 20, sometimes 30 years, in our case, the U .S. military, a lot of it in conflict, and do something like this. So it's, and myself included, have really taken this mission on as important as any mission I've ever had. And that's what I hear. But of course, it isn't about us. I mean, there's other groups that are doing this, and there's certainly other groups that can do this, that get veterans that are really looking for something other than your standard jobs. This is an area where they can really have an impact really quick. 00:09:50    JACK GAINES The reason I bring it up is that I had Scott Mann on, and one of the things he really challenged with, we're all cause -based in the military. We work to a cause. We have a bigger thing we're trying to reach. And people get out. Some go to church, some start a business, some start a pizzeria or a workout joint. But some just struggle with trying to find that sense of cause and how they place it, what they can do with it. And his challenge was it drove him to suicide because he couldn't find his place in life after getting out of the military. And so that's why he looked into other things like acting and writing books and lectures and veterans of care programs. Veterans Without Orders, who does water delivery, because I want to show veterans that there are opportunities out there. We can apply that sense of cause to make a difference so that they don't feel like they're alone in this world. When I was talking to the Veterans Without Orders folks, what they found is being on the ground, a lot of the NGOs were surprised at how fast and efficient they were. They went to Haiti and some of the World Food Program folks were like, wow, how long have you guys been working together? It seems like you've been friends for years. And he's like, no, actually, We had a phone call for 20 minutes, landed, met, got on it. But we just have a common language. We understand what each other's doing. We know we're both here for the right reasons. And you just build that instant trust in order to do a mission. And that's what I assume you guys are seeing there as well. I worked pretty closely with him on the Afghan evacuation. 00:11:15    MIC MULROY I worked pretty closely with him on the Afghan evacuation. My group was called Dunkirk. We weren't a Team America Elite. We also did a lot with Scott. Because that was such a cause near and dear to their heart, that was the first. foray into humanitarian work. And I think that's stuck with a lot of them. And we're seeing a lot of that continue around the world where veterans say, oh, we can really do something here. I think that's great. 00:11:41    JACK GAINES With Kabul on the midst of collapsing, I saw a lot of veterans rallying together to figure out how to get private logistics in there, getting buses, getting private planes. One thing that I bumped into was a lot of NGOs that were desperately trying to get help because they had people that were working with aid and with state and with the military that were not represented on those lists that needed to get out of there because they were part of the cigar report or they were part of distribution and the Taliban knew who they were and they were going to come after them. My part was just plugging those NGOs in with veterans who had logistics, who had access to help them get some of those folks out. But I did notice that... Once people got involved, it's just almost like there was a light came on and said, oh, I don't have to wait for the U .S. government to order me to do something. I can actually go make a difference. I can take my skills and help be a part of the whole foreign policy scheme and actually do stuff. I can do it without having to be a part of aid or state. I can just build an NGO and do it. So I'm glad to see that splintering because I think it's created a lot of opportunities for folks. Yeah, 00:12:47    MIC MULROY Yeah, and it just doesn't need to be about... FIBO, we're just one group of many. My preference would be more about the need, and that is where we're going, right, where the need is. And then to the extent that there's a secondary is the fact that veterans can get involved. They can start their own. They can get involved with us. They can get involved with other groups. We do want to be the promoter of that concept. We get a lot of veterans out there. They need a purpose, I think. But there's also a need out there. It's on both sides of the equation. And I think... The skills that they bring to the table, they are very value -added into this arena. And we've heard that from many humanitarians, quite frankly, who have not been able to figure this out. This is something that we would have put in the too difficult category. So it doesn't need to be about our particular group. I think it should be about the need, which is growing. And on that side, there is massive crises around the world. People should care that they're starving kids in Sudan. And on top of that, the consequences. are going to be felt by everybody in the world if there is massive migration of their ability to feed themselves or their fling and conflict that make it untenable to even exist there. So these are issues that are very human issues that I think anybody, whether they're in Europe or the United States or Japan, should care about, but also because it could dramatically impact where they live because this is not something that's just going to stay contained. There are conflicts that are growing, that are perpetuated in existence. And there are, of course, climate issues. Climate's changing, and that's going to cause mass migration. And not people that are coming with their own means to support themselves. So not just taking care of the immediate need, which is food to people that are farming, but building up their ability to feed themselves has to be part of the long -term equation, or we're never going to get out of that cycle. And then we create these permanent IDK camps. and no chance of a future. So that needs to be done, but there needs to be long -term planning in the international community. I think from the U .S. perspective, I think we should lead it, but I don't think we should be it. This needs to be a joint effort by the international community. Actions are what count. So that should be a collective effort of the international community, which the United States would be a part. It'd certainly lead, in my opinion, but it needs to be much more of a collective effort. Some people... I'm just not used to seeing a lot of veterans in the humanitarians here. And there has been some like, wow, you guys are military. What are you guys doing here? And for the groups, the veterans that are out there doing it, if they're asking my opinion, I'd say just be clear. Don't worry about justifying your purpose in the humanitarian. There's never going to be too many people trying to help people around the world. So just drive on, do good work, and they'll either appreciate it or they won't. But I do hear that from other veterans that get into the area. To your point. Very few people serve in the United States, just the way it is. It's a very small group. Not to be corny, but it is a family. It's almost like there's characteristics that you just notice immediately across the services that you just have a commonality. So you talk to say, why would you think? Generally the same way, you're very mission -oriented, and that's something that's covering to a lot of people when they get with other veterans. In veteran suicide, it is a serious problem, and there are people addressing it, and I think they're doing great work. But one of the things I found, and you referenced it when it comes to Scott, is you don't have a purpose. From what I've seen, people can go downhill pretty quick. You go into a pit. And I live in Montana. I love Montana on a veterans here and coming. Some of the guys live in a pretty remote area. Some, like myself, live pretty close there. And when we do vet events, you basically send guys out to get other guys and say, yeah, I'll tell you no for an answer. They need to come in. They need to be around their people. They need to... shoot the shit and rib each other's and smoke a cigar or add a bourbon or whatever their thing is. But you got to go out there and find these guys. And some of them, they might appear to be okay, but next day they're not. 00:16:49    JACK GAINES Let me know if I have this picture right. You've created the Lobos Institute, which is kind of a training and preparation for people who want to get out and work in the humanitarian space or do outreach or work with partner nations. Outreach. to enable people to either help you with your outreach and your programs or to create their own space. And then you have Fogbo, which is kind of your operational arm where you are focusing on humanitarian assistance through Fogbo as when a filter for people who come through the Lobos Institute or other volunteers, but it's also a way for you to get into helping support others in need around the world. Is that kind of a clear way that you align this? Lobos Institute, 00:17:30    MIC MULROY Lobos Institute, three main components. One's like a think tank. where people learn and discuss issues of national security. The second part is tactical training here in Montana. So it's, as you might catch, mountain warfare, because everybody thinks winter warfare when I think of Montana. But the main effort is the enabling of humanitarian operations. And we've worked with the UN and Yemen, with the State Department in Afghanistan after withdrawal. And we're doing a lot of this with FABO in Sudan. As I mentioned, we don't do security sort of thing. It's important and there's groups to do it. That's cool. But it's not us. So my perspective, I would like to see more attention on some of these international and humanitarian crises. It's not something that exists simply on the other side of the world. And I'd like to see the extent that veterans are looking for something to do post -career, of course, military veterans, but State Department, the agency, et cetera. This is a place that I think they'll find meaning and purpose. And I think we all need that. 00:18:32    JACK GAINES Right. Crisis and disasters also attracts opportunism. I think a lot of people realize that with Afghanistan, that we're just feeding the wrong animal in a lot of ways. And that we just have to understand that with our aid and our foreign policy, that anytime that we give something, every time we build something, we also attract opportunism. And we need to make sure that when we're handling the government's business, We're doing it in the right possible way with the right checks and balances so that we're not just passing off vaccines to someone who's going to just sell them on the black market so that they can go to London and party. There's a lot to be learned from the time we spent in Afghanistan on the military side and on the diplomatic side, 00:19:08    MIC MULROY There's a lot to be learned from the time we spent in Afghanistan on the military side and on the diplomatic side, but certainly on the aid side and foreign assistance. When it comes to that, a lot of great work done by a lot of great people. But we need to take the lessons learned from that as well, because I think there's a growing concern that... The United States is the biggest donor around the world, which I think we should be proud of, but it's almost taken for granted. And a lot of it is not actually getting to the people whose it's intended to. Which my humble opinion doesn't mean we stop, it just means we get better at. That needs to be better explained to the American taxpayer who ultimately are the ones paying the bill. That's, I think it should go without saying, but I am saying it because I think there's a backlash and we don't want that to be the case. from the American people on what they view as just like an endless credit card for crises around the world from the American people without proper safeguards. And I think we need to get to a place where they feel more confident that's the case and where they feel it's aligned with our overall interest. 00:20:12    Close Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.  

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• 215: Ismael Lopez on OHDACA and Humanitarian Relief (Part II)

  Welcome to the One CA Podcast. Today, Brian Hancock interviewed Ismael Lopez about OHDACA and Humanitarian Relief and his experiences as a Marine Civil Affairs Officer.  Brian's profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-j-hancock/ Ismael's profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ishrlopez/  Transcript available below. --- One CA is a product of the civil affairs association  and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership. We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.  To contact the show, email us at [email protected]  or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org --- Great news! Feedspot, the podcast industry ranking system rated One CA Podcast as one of the top 10 shows on foreign policy. Check it out at: https://podcast.feedspot.com/foreign_policy_podcasts/ --- Special Thanks to the creators of Jazz & Bossa Cafe for the sample of Positive March Music. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHeCxa0rMQ4 --- Transcript: 00:00:10 BRIAN HANCOCK Welcome to One Civil Affairs Podcast. I'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock, and I will be your host for this session. Today we have with us Major Ishmael Lopez to discuss civil affairs and the ongoing relief effort in the Gaza Strip. Let's talk a little bit more about that training piece. Part of readiness is being able to do your job. The Marine is an expeditionary force, perhaps becoming even more expeditionary with the expeditionary advanced base operations. construct, the chief of the Navy signed off on. So very interesting training opportunities for the fleet right now. And you mentioned Balakatan and some of those other exercise type missions that you've done. 00:00:53 BRIAN HANCOCK And I know you've probably done Marine Corps Warfighting exercise and mentioned JRTC. But what are some of these other missions you've done? You've talked about a dock up. A dock up is joined at the hip with humanitarian assistance and disaster relief, HADR. The Navy has a huge role in HADR for just a whole bunch of reasons. Has your detachment participated in any HADR missions? Is that another training opportunity that you have with your Marines in detachment? 00:01:21 ISMAEL LOPEZ We as a detachment have not. However, I do have individual Marines who have participated in HADR missions. Not a whole lot of experience, but there's some resident within the detachment. And to your point, there is huge training opportunity there for understanding how to integrate into an HADR response specific to DOD's role in supporting the State Department. We do have the opportunities for training with USAID, but that's all classroom. And we try to get as much exposure to that as possible. But as far as real-world HADR scenarios where we're able to integrate with the State Department and even into a joint task force or a multinational task force, it is very limited. I know that that is being discussed for future iterations of Balakatan specifically to have a HADR response, which makes sense, right? Because Balakatan is becoming a massive multinational exercise that features activities across the spectrum of military operations. Once that piece of it is integrated, then it's truly a well -thought -out, deliberate exercise on how to integrate HADR, whereas right now it's sort of sprinkled on top. The Marines, sailors, and even the Army, civil affairs practitioners that are supporting, are supporting steady -state engineering projects. And I think that's a missed opportunity because there's so much more that we can provide than project management. And there are opportunities there, but... If I'm a commander sitting on top of a joint task force, that's not where I would place those assets because it's going to happen. They're not caught off guard and they understand, okay, where is the USAID person that I need to be linked up with? Who do I need to be syncing up with? Again, looking for those opportunities. 00:03:22 BRIAN HANCOCK opportunities. I hear you. I know you've done a fair amount of work in South America with all the attention on ACOM and sometimes UCOM. I don't think we talk enough about, I think there are many opportunities in South America to do great things. And if we take a look at the Tierra del Fuego with all the earthquakes and the volcanoes and the things happening there and climate change and disasters, there seems to me more disasters, which is going to increase the chance that our government is temporarily overwhelmed and might have to issue a diplomatic cable and request assistance. For us in Title X, that's probably just some of our unique capabilities like rotary wing, pull up a nuclear ship and just start giving power to a large area. There's amazing things that we can do. And I know that there are disasters happening in South American countries, which tend to be a little more fragile. Do we have those opportunities? Is that something that we just haven't mapped out? How would we go about helping our South American brothers? 00:04:25 ISMAEL LOPEZ struggle with this because like you, I see the opportunities that are down there and they're plentiful. I worked down at the embassy in Bogotá, Colombia for three years during my FAO tour. And while I was there, I was a counter -narcotics maritime operations planner. So really fancy title for managing Section 333 funding programming. But our partners in that region are all about working with us. training with us, opening up their countries for us to train. They want to fight with us. In Colombia, we were trying to organize an additional exercise outside of the standard unit toss that goes on in South America. So as we started trying to test, does this concept work? What are going to be some of the challenges? What does it look like for closing ship to shore in a contestant environment? Colombia has amazing terrain that is very similar to that that you will find in the first island chain, surprisingly. A lot of people wouldn't know that, but it's there. So when you consider distance and cost associated with being able to provide realistic training that mimics the future fight, you have it in the same hemisphere. The challenge is, the NDS calls out very specifically, services, your priority is... UCOM. Your priority is AFRICOM. Your priority is CENTCOM. Your priority is writ large is Indopaycom. We'll focus on that. And so that automatically causes the services to look elsewhere rather than looking down south. And so that means that resources, manpower, etc. are going to get pulled to support efforts down there because it's not called out specifically in the NDS. And now it's being focused on other parts of the world. Fortunately, Marine Forces Reserve has shifted from trying to compete with the active component to adding relevancy by focusing on developing those opportunities in Latin America. I know the Army does a lot with the TSOCs down there, but more can be done and should be done, in my opinion. I think the relevancy is there and transferable to other parts of the globe. It's just getting past the, hey, I understood that this document calls this out. but there are opportunities here that align to what we're trying to get after in the NDS. And the other piece of that too is when you consider if we're having assets down there, it reduces the number of available resources that can respond to contingencies. And I think that's part of that equation. 00:07:09 BRIAN HANCOCK I think so. It's really not a bridge too far from our existing mental models. The energy may be in PayCon, but at the same time, you're still going to JRTC. Is that the Deep Pacific? No, not at all. But there's still value in that training. If you can go to Columbia and move through similar islands, have similar river problem sets, similar terrain problem sets, and get that experience at a fraction of the cost of going to the Deep Pacific, that's not something we should overlook. And we can't ignore the fact that there's increasing levels of adversary activity in South America, I don't think we should take that for granted. And doing these mill to mill and working together side by side on various projects, there's nothing but good stuff there. So I'm hopeful that we may in the future put a little bit more energy into that theater. 00:08:02 ISMAEL LOPEZ Yeah. And the one last piece of it I think that we take for granted is the belief that our partners in the Western Hemisphere are going to stay aligned to us. because we have those shared values. But when you have our competitors knocking on the door and saying, hey, we want to train with you. We want to provide you money. We want to do all these things. And we're taking for granted that relationship. It's only going to last so much longer before the number of partners that we have on there are going to be very limited. Yeah. 00:08:33 BRIAN HANCOCK You know, it kind of reminds me of the Sims game. I don't know if you've played this. But there's a relationship meter. And if you want to have positive relationships with another avatar in this simulation, you have to interact with them. You have to do that fairly regularly because over time, that relationship meter decays. Relationships aren't static like that. They're usually moving forward or they're sliding backwards. And if we're not in that game and we have hungry competitors, we can see where that could go. Let's talk about some of your work as a foreign area officer. That's a very coveted job for civil affairs and folks who think they may have a future intent to work for Department of State. A lot of folks don't get there. What did you do as a foreign area officer, and how do you get involved in that kind of work? 00:09:25 ISMAEL LOPEZ For the Marine Corps, I was actually able to use my experience as a civil affairs officer to springboard. into becoming a Latin America FAO. So in the Marines, we have two different ways of becoming a foreign area officer. There is the experience track, which is the one I fell into. And then the other one is a study track. So either route, you have solicitation for candidates, individuals who have experiences overseas, working specifically on the civ. side of the house, not necessarily the mill -to -mill piece, right? Because we're looking at international relations, foreign relations, etc. And then you have the study track, which is you get selected, you get sent to Monterey to earn a master's degree in international relations. Then they send you to the language school, DLI, for a language, and you get assigned a region. And then you get sent either to combatant command to work as a desk officer. or you get sent to a country overseas and you're going to work out at the embassy. So for me, I was able to parlay my experiences as a civil affairs officer, and then the board selected me as a Latin America foreign area officer. And what that did was that it opened me up to that role in the embassy. So my wife's active duty Air Force, and she's also a Latin America foreign area officer. She got sent to Naval Postgraduate School, earned her master's. Didn't have to go to DLI because she already spoke Spanish. And then she got orders to the embassy in Columbia. Family and I obviously went along. And as we were doing our introduction with the scout chief, she mentions my husband's a civil affairs officer and a FAO. And his eyes just lit up. He's like, we haven't had a Marine sitting in the naval mission for the Section 333 program in quite some time because we just don't have them. Part of the challenge is the cost associated with bringing one down. But since I was already there, in his eyes, he was getting two fails for the price of one. So because I had that, I was able to meet the requirement for the billet. And then I was able to serve as the program manager for the Section 333 program for roughly three years. 00:11:38 BRIAN HANCOCK Well done. And what an exciting mission. If I was younger, I'd want to run off there too and do something like that. I mean, my Spanish needs to be a little bit better, but I know I could brush it up. Hey, let's talk about the... Very difficult situation in Gaza right now. I don't think we can approach that with anything but sympathy for all involved. Certainly there's great suffering there by many different parties. And I know you were one of those folks who raised his hand and said, hey, I will help with some of that Gaza relief and did that mission, at least for some time. Can you tell me a little bit about your experience with the Gaza relief mission? And are you comfortable sharing any lessons learned from your time? 00:12:20 ISMAEL LOPEZ Yeah, so it was very interesting when the Gaza relief mission kicked off for several reasons, right? The challenge there, very, very dynamic event, very tragic event. And then on one hand, we have to support our ally in Israel. But on the other hand, great suffering occurring to the people in Gaza as a result of the mission out there. So the struggle within DOD at the time was, what should we do from an ATA perspective to help those that are suffering in Gaza? So when we look at it from within DSCA, we were really waiting for inputs from OSD and even the NSC as to what is an appropriate humanitarian aid response. One that's not going to undermine our partner. But at the same time, sending a strong message to the people in Gaza and the international community that the United States is not going to sit idly by while people are suffering. So it's a very delicate balance that had to be found. So from an access property standpoint, I was looking into what could we do and how close could we get to provide items from the inventory that could provide life -saving support or even just support for those that are being displaced. into neighboring countries. What ended up happening was we, DSCA, specifically the humanitarian aid and the humanitarian demining division, was ordered to reallocate all the ODACA funding that had already been provided to the combative commands and used to support the Gaza relief missions, specifically the maritime bridge. So we had to deliver the bad news to the combative commands, like, hey, Any money that you have not obligated at this point, we have to pull. You were going to utilize that specifically for this mission. Concurrently, we had to assume risk. This was in the summer, right? Heading into the peak of hurricane season. So we had to decide what number were we comfortable with holding back in the event that a hurricane hit or earthquake hit and we knew it was coming and a partner was going to ask for assistance. And we wouldn't necessarily have the ability to ask Congress for additional funding. It was a fine balance there. At the end of the day, we ended up avoiding any major hurricanes in the Caribbean where a partner asked for support. So avoided that. We were able to support the Gaza Relief Mission, specifically the Maritime Pier, getting aid out there, providing those flight hours, the ship hours, getting aid as close as possible. But then we had to stop supporting that because the bridge was not as structurally sound as we all thought it was going to be. And we've been looking at other avenues of providing that support to the people of Gaza, primarily through our partners. The other challenge there is we can't actually enter an area of conflict for obvious reasons. So that added another layer of complexity to support the mission. But as we can and as we are allowed to, we continue to provide support. CENTCOM has been great identifying requirements and coordinating with the SCA to ensure that the folks that need that aid are getting that aid from us. 00:15:49 BRIAN HANCOCK That's great. It's a tricky situation. It goes out to everyone involved, but I'm glad there are folks out there like yourself who are doing what we can do to try and provide some support. Looking after civilians in conflict is a core part of what we do in civil affairs, no matter what branch you happen to be in as a civil affairs officer. So that is fantastic. I'd like to talk a little bit about one of the differences in the Army and the Marine Corps for civil affairs officers, such as yourself, and I'm beside myself, is that as a Marine civil affairs officer, 00:16:19 ISMAEL LOPEZ and I'm 00:16:22 BRIAN HANCOCK a Marine civil affairs officer, you at some point have to return to your primary branch. Whereas I can continue as a... civil affairs officer for the rest of my career if I choose to. Do you see that changing? Clearly there is a need for career professionals such as yourself to be able to stay in that MOS. What are your thoughts on that? 00:16:41 ISMAEL LOPEZ So this is the same thing with the foreign area officers, the Marine Corps. We have to go back and forth and because the primary mission of the Marine Corps is to support the infantry, right? I can make an argument for how Fayos and civil affairs does that too, but that's a harder conversation to have at the top. But I'm not sure if the, once the 17XX MOS is fully approved and implemented, how that's going to look for officers. Are they going to be able to just stay on that track? I've heard maybe it's going to happen. I've heard, no, it's not going to happen. So it's hard to say. 00:17:20 BRIAN HANCOCK it's hard to say. I saw a pre -decisional slide on that, which showed a glide path moving between civil affairs and PSYOP and space operations, 00:17:33 BRIAN HANCOCK operations, et cetera, all the way up to full kernel. That gave me the impression that it would become a career, though you would move around within that. But how things are rolled out, you know, the devil's in the details. 00:17:47 ISMAEL LOPEZ in the details. We shouldn't be bouncing back and forth because then you lose credibility in the field on both sides of it, right? So I am, by trade, a tank officer. 00:17:47 BRIAN HANCOCK in the details. 00:17:56 ISMAEL LOPEZ I no longer have an MOS in the Marine Corps because we did away with tanks. But if I'm out of tanks for three years because I'm serving in a civil affairs capacity or as a foreign area officer, and to say I did my company command time and I come back in and now I'm vying for a staff job or vying for battalion command, me being gone hurts me. It doesn't help me. 00:18:19 BRIAN HANCOCK Right. They see it like an additional duty. All of the Marine Corps civil affairs officers and NCOs I work with have been nothing but extremely professional and competent. So that is really a shame that that kind of stigma follows. 00:18:34 BRIAN HANCOCK But I see the chain of logic there. If we are forced to flow through it, the Marine Corps is very agile, turns a little faster than the Army. You've stood up these meth information groups. Where are you going to get the professionals to fill those ranks? At some point, we want to fill them with Marines instead of Army contractors. Right. 00:18:52 ISMAEL LOPEZ Right. 00:18:52 BRIAN HANCOCK So this is a capability to do that if you can stay in that field and move through these MOSs. You get three MOSs for the price of one. I thought it was a great idea. 00:19:02 ISMAEL LOPEZ Yeah. And I hope what you saw is correct. I think that's great. But I also see a challenge with civil affairs, psyops, MISO, very different capabilities. We all work within the information realm. You can't necessarily have a psyoper doing civil affairs and you can't have a civil affairs practitioner doing psyops because the way we approach that is not the same. And that in and of itself is challenging. So I think the Marine Corps really has to work and think through that because there is the influence Marine, which is a Marine that's trained in psyops, cyber and civil affairs. But it's going to take a level of maturity and professional understanding to do each one of those roles and stay in that lane without crossing over and potentially losing your credibility within one of those hats. I could totally see it in a civil engagement where all of a sudden now, because I am a PSYOP -er or because I have my PSYOP hat on, I'm thinking now through the threat lens. well, I'm supposed to be having this friendly conversation. Now it gets out of hand and the person I'm speaking to probably doesn't trust me as much as they initially did. That takes a lot of role -playing, a lot of training, a lot of reinforcing of this is what it is you're doing, vice the other. Yeah. 00:20:25 BRIAN HANCOCK Yeah. Well said. We're hitting the end of our time, so I'm going to ask you my last question, and that's next for Ishmael Lopez. 00:20:34 ISMAEL LOPEZ So I'm actually rotating out of... first civil affairs group. And I'm going to be joining Six Anglico up in Seattle, Washington joint base. Louis McCord, actually. I'm going to be a salt leader and then potentially transitioning to be the executive officer there. And this is part of the, I have to go back to my primary MOS, even though I don't have one. So I'm not in civil affairs for too long as it hurts my career progression. On the DSCA side of things, We're adding the civil affairs liaison title responsibilities to me specific to humanitarian aid and ODACA. So I'm going to be working closely with the combatant commands, country teams, hopefully the civil affairs schoolhouses across the services to provide HA specific training for civil affairs. And this is just a capability gap that I identified a year ago. So DSCA, we provide training to security cooperation professionals. But what they do is very different than what civil affairs does. So tailoring the training for the civil affairs audience. So very excited about the new opportunity. That's outstanding. 00:21:48 BRIAN HANCOCK outstanding. And I think you've identified a good opportunity there. I graduated from the civil military operations planners course there at Moss, and we didn't spend much time on this. It's a short course, of course, and you can't do everything. A little bit more robust opportunity for HADR and ODACA. Those are nothing but win -win missions, and you do them at every phase of conflict, including competition. So huge opportunity there. Whoever ends up getting you is going to be very lucky. You're an amazing Marine and a great person. So thank you for taking your time. If the audience has questions, feel free to write to One Civil Affairs Podcast, and we'll do our best to make a connection. Thanks again for your time, Ishmael, and have a good evening, Al. 00:22:39 ISMAEL LOPEZ Thank you so much, Brian. Thank you for the opportunity, and very kind.

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  23:06
• 214: Ismael Lopez on OHDACA and Humanitarian Relief (Part I)

  Welcome to the One CA Podcast. Today, Brian Hancock interviewed Ismael Lopez about OHDACA and Humanitarian Relief and his experiences as a Marine Civil Affairs Officer.  Brian's profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-j-hancock/ Ismael's profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ishrlopez/  Transcript available below. --- One CA is a product of the civil affairs association  and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership. We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.  To contact the show, email us at [email protected]  or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org --- Great news! Feedspot, the podcast industry ranking system rated One CA Podcast as one of the top 10 shows on foreign policy. Check it out at: https://podcast.feedspot.com/foreign_policy_podcasts/ --- Special Thanks to the creators of Jazz & Bossa Cafe for the sample of Positive March Music. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHeCxa0rMQ4 --- Transcript: 00:00:05 BRIAN HANCOCK Welcome to One Civil Affairs Podcast. I'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock, and I will be your host for this session. Today we have with us Major Ismael Lopez to discuss civil affairs, special missions, and the ongoing relief effort in the Gaza Strip. Mr. Lopez is the Excess Property Program Manager for the Defense Security Cooperation Agency. He's also a major in the United States Marine Corps Reserve. where he serves as the Latin American Foreign Area Officer and Detachment Commander with the 1st Civil Affairs Group. At DSCA, he oversees ODACA -funded Humanitarian Assistance, HA, supporting disaster relief and capacity -building efforts in over 28 countries, including the responses in the Afghanistan refugee crisis, the Ukrainian crisis, and humanitarian support to Gaza. In his expanded role, he acts as a liaison for civil affairs, focusing on training, project continuity, and aligning civil affairs efforts with strategic goals. 00:01:09 BRIAN HANCOCK With over 15 years of experience in security cooperation, Mr. Lopez has supported humanitarian assistance operations globally, including key relief efforts following Hurricanes Irma, Maria, and Iota. Major Lopez, welcome to the show. 00:01:25 ISMAEL LOPEZ Thank you, Brian. 00:01:26 BRIAN HANCOCK Boy, you've been busy. 00:01:27 ISMAEL LOPEZ I certainly have. Unfortunately, I've been really busy to do the things that I love. 00:01:32 BRIAN HANCOCK Now, let's talk a little bit about this mysterious full -time job that you do, the excess property manager for a defense security cooperation agency. Security cooperation being one of the three most important missions in the world, in my opinion. Can you tell us a little bit about what you do as the excess property manager? And if you're in the business of giving away property, how do I sign up for this? 00:01:54 ISMAEL LOPEZ What's funny is that, as you mentioned that, There is a running joke down at the Southcom HA office where they say, if you need a new refrigerator, Ish is the guy to call. Basically, what I do in a nutshell is I work with the combat commands and all the way down to the country teams to identify partners, to provide them non -lethal excess property in an effort to achieve very specific objectives in the country. What the program does is it'll take items that are basically pretty much brand new to a little bit of wear and tear, which we can refurbish in our warehouses. And then we issue them out or we donate them to the partner with the intention of meeting a very specific objective in that country. So aside from that, I also support DOD humanitarian aid efforts for any initiatives that are... utilizing the overseas humanitarian disaster and civic aid. So in a nutshell, that's pretty much what I do. And yeah, if you need a fridge, if you need a microwave, if there is an effect that could be achieved by me donating it to you, sure. 00:03:06 BRIAN HANCOCK We're expanding NATO a little bit. And many of the NATO countries, about 32 of them, they're putting a little bit more money into defense these days for a wide variety of reasons. And if they decide they want to send up a new office somewhere in Poland or something like that, How would they go about saying, hey, all those esks and chairs and things that you have in Dermo, we'd like some of that. And who pays the shipping? 00:03:29 ISMAEL LOPEZ The folks sitting in NATO would have to work with ODC and Poland first. They will validate that requirement, then submit it on up to UCOM. UCOM will have their lawyers look at it. And then from there, it will make its way up to DSCA for execution. Now, what pays for all this is the Odaka appropriations that gets earmarked from the Odaka budget that provides transportation for this program. So the program comes at no cost. It's all funded exclusively through the Odaka appropriation. 00:04:05 BRIAN HANCOCK Awesome. Let me talk a little bit more about that and ask you a few questions. Odaka is kind of a hidden gem that a number of us in the civil affairs community know about. Many other people don't, and you can definitely achieve effects with this, especially in competition, which is something that we're, I think, as a joint combined army, really struggling with, is how we get after having those influence and deterrence effects in the competition phase. ODACA is one of those tools that's available to us. It's the Overseas Humanitarian Disaster and Civic Aid Fund. Now, I have very limited experience with that program. Can you tell the audience a little bit more about the ODACA creation, how large it is, what it usually funds? 00:04:54 ISMAEL LOPEZ Yeah, absolutely. I'm able to see it from two perspectives, right? I'm able to see this from my seat at DSCA and then my seat in the reserve component as a civil affairs officer, where to your earlier point, ODACA is a bit of this hidden gem and it could be leveraged to help. achieving effects in the competition phase, but where there are issues is the lack of understanding of what you can and cannot do with the appropriation or how you can actually link it to creating those effects. And I get that because rewind the clock back to 2013 when I first delved into civil affairs, one of the metrics that are utilized to determine our success in country is How many projects can you nominate or how many projects did you complete? So then when you're aiming to achieve or hit that metric, you're not necessarily looking at the linkage. You're almost betting on that someone will create that linkage for you that you're providing the activity in support of. So Odaka, generally speaking, we're looking at about $26 to $30 million a year. But then that money... gets divvied up across the combatant commands and is prioritized based off of national defense strategy. So if it's called out very specifically country X or region Y is the priority when it comes to DoD humanitarian aid efforts, then preponderance of that money will be earmarked for that country or that region globally. Once you pull the thread on that, then there's different tiers. for the countries that are located in that combatant command or in that region of the world, and we're able to allocate money for those countries as well. Where it gets tricky is that what will factor into it is how proactive and how thorough the ODCs and the SCOs are with executing those HA projects and then the end -use monitoring piece of it. So their requirements are tied to these project nominations. The country team, the HA managers, the civil affairs teams that are assigned to or are deployed in that country are not providing the feedback necessary to determine the return on investment. Then the following year, what could end up happening is this country is a priority, but what we're not able to tell Congress is, are we actually achieving the effects that we're desiring in that country or in that region? And if we can't answer that with tangible metrics, then that will factor into a reduction of ODACA funding for the following year. Recently, in Indo -PACOM, the focus has been very heavy on the mill -to -mill engagement piece. What is starting to catch up now is the sieve mill piece. And so we have money allocated, but they're sort of playing catch up with the rest of the COCOMs as it pertains to. getting those funds and then executing projects and us being able to sustain them over an extended period of time. 00:08:01 BRIAN HANCOCK Yeah, it is a challenging problem set. One of the taskers that we get annually here in our command is to measure the strategic effect of DACA projects, which are largely tactical, in a bunch of different countries. and were given one week. Now you've got a rotational force here of about 15 civil affairs folks of various persuasions. Maybe a couple of them can be dedicated to that task. They had nothing to do with the inception of these projects. They were not part of the construction. They saw none of the... assessment or staff estimate documents related to them. All they saw was probably, if they're lucky, the proposal that went into the website to get them. And they don't have time to do extensive interviews or measurement. And it's pretty tricky to take something very tactical and then indicate not as an MOP you completed the project, but as an MOE it actually influenced the local populace towards U .S. and NATO objectives. That is a very tough thing to do mathematically, especially without the data, documents, and time to be able to do that. 00:09:18 ISMAEL LOPEZ is a 00:09:28 BRIAN HANCOCK What is the standard that is accepted by the panel who's controlling those funding and appropriations? What realistically do you have to prove? 00:09:39 ISMAEL LOPEZ So this has been a challenge for several years now. I saw it firsthand. As a civil affairs team leader in the South Com AOR, where I deployed to support a very specific commander, but as a, hey, by the way, while you're down there, there's these products that were funded several years ago. Do you mind taking a look? No context behind it. I can't do pre and post surveys on the local populace because I don't know what it was or what the baseline was prior to the construction or the completion. And then now. So it was very arbitrary. It was very much, yeah, it's good. Is the government still funding it? Sure. Are they employing people that are maintaining it? Sure. And I think back then, 2013, 2014 timeframe, I think the blanket answer to all that was, we're countering Russia, China. And so as long as you were saying that, then it was all gravy. And we've obviously have evolved from that to we're now tying these very tactical actions. to operational objectives, right? So are we supporting CoCom LOEs? And if we're supporting CoCom LOEs at the minimum, we understand that we should be integrated into strategic objectives, right? Because the LOEs are derived from those strategic documents. And we've gotten to that point, but now where we are able or unable to get that data or the metrics. really falls on the lack of funding to do it. So the easy button is, well, you have your security cooperation professionals that are assigned to the embassies. They should be. They can do that. Yeah. But the reality is all embassies, regardless of the size, they are overextended and under -resourced. So they're always dealing with VIP visitors. They're dealing with taskings from the State Department. They have their steady state activities they have to be supporting, and they're falling in on, let's just say, 30 projects over the last three years. And, oh, by the way, all these assessments need to be done, but your TDY funds are X. And there's no way of doing it. So then it trickles down to, hey, do we have any civil affairs teams coming downrange? Can they support? And I think we've gotten to a bit of a sweet spot. is this mutual understanding that civil affairs teams in country, as long as they're not being detracted from their main mission, are able to provide some sort of support in conducting those surveys and assessments. However, it's still not the right answer because they're falling in on rudimentary information, background information, and it's still very much from their perspective. At DSCA, we have increased our budget for AM &E purposes to help country teams that are in the red, so to speak, when it comes to conducting these assessments, especially countries that are a priority where we understand, hey, we need to continue engaging on the HA side of things and not the MIL side of things. So we need to get as close to valid or reality as we can. So we have contractors now that are assigned to the combat commands, folks within my office that can. be requested to go out and support. And again, we're working across the command and commands to see as appropriate where we can support. So a lot of work still has to be done there. But again, looking back to 10 years ago, even five years ago, I think across the board, DOD has gotten significantly better at providing metrics to validate activities vice. simply stating we're countering Russia and China and we're going to call it good. 00:13:35 BRIAN HANCOCK As they should. All of these projects should be tied to a line of effort, tied to a strategic effect that's in line both with the COCOM and the chief of mission. And then you would need a way to measure them at a granular level and then aggregate them to measure progress against a line of effort aligned to strategic intent. I don't think that framework has been built. I hope we eventually get there. If you ask some of the SCAs in the embassy, at best, they're going to give you anecdotal information. So there's a lot of things that we would have to do. And if we send a civil affairs team, depending on their training and background, that can be more or less successful. Now, you're probably tracking that in the Army side of civil affairs, we've built that 38 golf program where I can have an engineer with 20 years of experience. It seems to me that's the guy we should be attaching. to a civil affairs team to go do one of these assessments. What do you think? 00:14:33 ISMAEL LOPEZ I completely agree with that. And that's 100 % a step in the right direction. On the Marine side of the house, we sell the capability for civil affairs to do engineering assessments, bridge assessments. And I'm like, who here is an engineer? Who amongst us realistically do that? I mean, one example is I got asked to do a port assessment in Panama. And if you look at the J -SIMS form, It's very, very specific, very detailed, talking depth of water. And how am I supposed to do that? But A, because you're in the environment and you're there, you claim as a capability that you're able to do that, then go on and do great things. And I think one of two things need to happen. Either one, we need to re -wicker the capability to a more realistic set or... Very similar to the 38 golf program is start incorporating or cross -training those specialized folks that can actually bring that capability to bear and then have that as part of the team. And then now we're being more honest with what it is that we can do in our assessments and the information that we're providing to hire. Right. 00:15:41 BRIAN HANCOCK I appreciate that. I watched as the Navy discontinued its civil affairs program. Obviously, the Marines are part of the Department of the Navy, so I don't want to. miscommunicate that. But the Navy had its own civil affairs for a while. And when we as the Army Civil Affairs came out and were asked to do port assessments in Rim of the Pacific, quite frankly, we couldn't do it. And we had functional specialists because there's quite a bit of difference between a great engineer who's used to large infrastructure and other things go out and assess the full range of capabilities of a port, especially after a major disaster. We had to bridge that gap. We had to go to German portmasters, which is great when you're working with combined partners. I think that's an opportunity. And they knew this business, soup and nails. They went out there and everything on the Jason and more they did and could even do follow -ups to see the progress as repair work was going on. That was fantastic that we had a joint partner. I don't think we have an organic capability in DOD to do things like that. And when we're talking having to project power to your port of debarkation, that seems like a gap that we need to fill right now. 00:16:59 ISMAEL LOPEZ Yeah, I agree. And I have some good news for you. The Navy is reconstituting their civil affairs program. When we were out at Balakatan in the Philippines last spring, we had a full -up Navy civil affairs team. I was the first of its kind in this reconstituted form, but I was part of a combined Marine Navy team in the Philippines. So Big Navy has realized that understanding where we're going as DOD, that they're bringing it back. And hopefully that's part of the equation there. I hope so. One of the reasons it was closed down is because the way they scoped their mission for Naval Civil Affairs. 00:17:34 BRIAN HANCOCK of the reasons it was closed down is because the way they scoped their mission for Naval Civil Affairs. was somewhat redundant with what the Army and the Marine Corps were already doing. So instead of focusing on those things where they have almost unique capabilities, such as assessing aquaculture and water -based commerce and those effects and the port stuff, they were doing a lot of land -based types of assessments and other things. And I think they became a victim of budget shortfall if they were seen as a redundant capability. both in the Army and the Marine Corps, you and I both have responsibility since we both need naval partners to do our job to help shape their burgeoning program and make sure as it's resetting that it doesn't make some of the mistakes that were made previously and help them be a vibrant addition to our larger civil affairs community because I think we really need them. 00:18:32 ISMAEL LOPEZ I wholeheartedly agree. There are fortunate scenarios. When you look at the reserve component where you can have these very uniquely trained individuals that can come in. I had a ship captain as a corporal, so he could speak to that. But that is luck, right? I shouldn't be planning on, I'm going to have these uniquely talented and experienced folks that are going to be able to pour a mission set. Now, 00:19:01 BRIAN HANCOCK you're a major in the United States Marine Corps Reserve. and you serve as commander of Detachment 3, the first civil affairs group. What is that like? What's a day look like on that job for you? 00:19:15 ISMAEL LOPEZ So at first, it's been the funnest job that I've had. I was a civil affairs team leader before, but as a commander, it's been more fulfilling because I'm able to... lead and mentor Marines who are interested in this space or really want to make a difference and have a better understanding of how their actions support operational and strategic objectives. I think that's often missed by the less experienced civil affairs Marines. My typical day as a commander is just dealing with admin, to be honest. It's making sure that my Marines are able and ready to deploy, enabling them to be able to go and execute the mission. is really what I spend a majority of my time doing. 00:20:01 BRIAN HANCOCK Let's talk a little bit more about that training piece. I know you kind of build it. A lot of things you do as admin, but part of readiness is being able to do your job. The Marine is an expeditionary force, perhaps becoming even more expeditionary with the expeditionary advanced base operations construct the chief of the Navy signed off on. So very interesting training opportunities for the fleet right now. And you mentioned Balakatan and some of those other exercise -type missions that you've done. And I know you've probably done Marine Corps Warfighting exercise and mentioned JRTC. But what are some of these other missions you've done? You've talked about a dock -up. A dock -up is joined at the hip with Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief, HADR. The Navy has a huge role in HADR for just a whole bunch of reasons. Has your detachment participated in any HADR missions? Is that another training opportunity that you have with your Marines and detachment?

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  21:37
• 213: Colleen Ryan on OSCE and European Border Security

  Today, we welcome Colleen Ryan from OSCE, border training and management. We brought her on today to discuss the current challenges of border security in Europe.  --- One CA is a product of the civil affairs association  and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership. We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.  To contact the show, email us at [email protected]  or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org --- Great news! Feedspot, the podcast industry ranking system rated One CA Podcast as one of the top 10 shows on foreign policy. Check it out at: https://podcast.feedspot.com/foreign_policy_podcasts/ --- Special thanks to the site "Rockstar Beats" for the sample of Taylor Seift "Midnight." Retrieved from: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXyd0iAdUYUWN7ifYYoqymNqJsaE0vEDC&si=-Vp6gUuRpqpHq66D   --- Transcript: 00:00:04    Introduction Welcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at [email protected]. Or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www.civilaffairsassos.org. I'll have those in the show notes. 00:00:39    Colleen Ryan My name is Colleen Ryan. I'm currently the Border Advisor to the OSC in Vienna. I'm seconded by the United States. So I do need to make it clear that I'm not speaking on behalf of the OSC or on the broader political or organizational context right now. I'm specifically focusing on my work and my experiences. Wow. You're seconded? What does that mean? Yeah, I'm essentially loaned out by the U .S. to the OSCE to serve in this role. They pay my salary. 00:01:13    Jack Nice. How did you get nominated? Where do you normally work? 00:01:15    COLLEEN RYAN In a past life, I was a police officer back in the U .S. before transitioning to working internationally. So I came to find out about OSCE and opportunities while I was doing my master's back in the States. And then I just ended up applying for the special monitoring mission to Ukraine. So I was out there as a monitoring officer up until Russia's full -scale invasion. And then went back during the war with a non -governmental organization working on humanitarian protection in the South. And then made my way to this current role. That's great. So you've been part of living history in a way. Yeah, to be out in Donetsk up until a couple days before the invasion. Working with border guards all across Europe and the changing security landscape has been an interesting role so far. 00:02:04    JACK GAINES So you've lived what soldiers call the moment before. There's a feel in the air, and it makes you edgy, it makes you a little twitchy, because you know that you're about to go down with an enemy. And so did you get that sense? Did you get that feel that things were coming close in Donetsk? 00:02:23    COLLEEN RYAN We were there at the time to monitor the Minsk agreements, which was a ceasefire at the time. It wasn't until when the U .S. evacuated all U .S. personnel that you started to realize that, you know, it may actually happen. 00:02:36    JACK GAINES Right. And so your current position is now training the border guards of Ukraine. 00:02:44    COLLEEN RYAN Yes, I manage a project that trains border guards across the OSCE, specifically on detecting porch documents and imposters. So if it's a forged passport presented at the airport or at the road crossing or for the train, we train the border guards, whether it's from Ukraine, Moldova, Bulgaria, Albania. So it really depends on the needs of OSC participating states in this realm. It's obviously a field that requires recurrent training because travel documents like passports are constantly updated. that national authorities can stay ahead of forgers. So it is something that we have to continue training on. And with the current war against Ukraine, they have the most need. They're one of the bigger border services in Europe. And then just the need in terms of half their border guard is currently engaged in combat operations, while you have the rest who are working to secure their western and southern borders and the surge in western and southern border crossings with the closure of Ukraine's airspace. You know, all of that contributes to an ongoing need for these skills and updated training on detecting passport forgeries and detecting imposters. And then you see that on the flip side with Moldova, they've seen a surge in the border crossings because a lot evacuated from Ukraine into Moldova. A lot of humanitarian NGOs and other people now fly into Kijanel to go to Ukraine. And so they've seen just a huge... spike in terms of the number of travel documents and also diversity in terms of different countries, different types of documents. And so that's why we've also been training Moldovan border police as well. 00:04:29    JACK GAINES Sure. So you're there to teach them how to spot forged documents, but is there also a follow on either by that nation's foreign affairs office or their law enforcement that tries to find the forger and remove them? 00:04:43    COLLEEN RYAN Yeah, there is very likely follow on. in terms of criminal investigations when they find forged documents or if they identify an imposter. But our project primarily focuses on those who are working on the first line and second line document checks to just spot the person posing as someone else. And then we do some work with the forensic experts after the fact to make sure that they've got that next level of training as part of their investigations. But primarily it's focusing on the first and second line officers. 00:05:14    JACK GAINES I'm sure they see all kinds of crazy stuff. Everything from the amateur glue stick to people who actually have passport printer creating forged documents. 00:05:24    COLLEEN RYAN Yeah, it's sad and it's also really interesting, the surge in the use of artificial intelligence and seeing the ways that they're incorporating things like morphing into the passport to their forgeries where two people can now travel on one passport using morphing images and things like that. It really just shows how quickly this field in terms of document forgeries is evolving and how much border services are struggling to keep up and to maintain their training so they can spot these techniques. Right, which is why they're starting to put chips and other special films that have a radio signature and stuff like that. 00:05:53    JACK GAINES they're starting to put chips and other special films that have a radio signature and stuff like that. You could print it, but to actually find those films or chips that have that radio signature has got to be a lot tougher. 00:06:08    COLLEEN RYAN Yeah, and a lot of it is just down to, like, Order guards are under a lot of stress and pressure and they don't have much time to spot the fakes. They're getting crushed by people. Yeah. So a lot of it is just making sure that they can spot some of these easier to identify orgery trends and to make a quicker decision before it gets to the point of really having to do an in -depth examination of the document. 00:06:32    JACK GAINES Yeah, I would imagine that you would see forgery trends because people would be going to the same forger and they would be doing similar patterns until that turned away. 00:06:41    COLLEEN RYAN Yeah. 00:06:41    JACK GAINES And what's it like working with all these different border guards from different countries? I mean, everyone has got to be a little different, but the same. 00:06:49    COLLEEN RYAN For me, it's interesting because I'm one of the few who has worked in policing, worked in this operational arena, kind of understands a lot of what they've done. And so you kind of speak the same language. It's interesting to hear from them, like what they view as their biggest security challenges and what their biggest day -to -day challenges are in terms of their work life. Because you see common trends across a lot of the services. A lot of them can be underpaid and that contributes to staff turnover. And so then that means you go back to a country to do more training because you have new staffs. But then to see how a country's security... You know, their perspective in terms of their biggest border security threats in Albania, where I trained in June, might be different from Bulgaria, where I trained last month. But, you know, it's still the commonalities of document forgeries, imposters, making sure your airports are secure and things like that. So I like talking with the border guards, such a different perspective across each country. Right. 00:07:51    JACK GAINES I think that's really helpful that you have a law enforcement background. helps break that ice. 00:07:58    COLLEEN RYAN I understand the perspective, but we're really just there to help and to fill the gaps that their service might not have the time or the funding to provide additional training because they've got the whole spectrum of border security issues to deal with within their service. And so that's where our organization or other international organizations doing these types of projects come in is just fill the gaps and help them develop their capacity. Especially with some other countries we train for where Frontex, maybe they're not working in that country. So then we can help supplement other EU or Frontex or IOM or UN initiatives and help to harmonize border security standards across Europe, South Caucasus, Central Asia. 00:08:45    JACK GAINES I don't want to just keep circling around Ukraine. Is there any stories you have from some of the other countries you worked with? What's your favorite beer hall story on those? 00:08:53    COLLEEN RYAN Yeah, I mean, most of my stories are with Ukraine because I've trained Ukraine so much. So I'm happy to talk about that. Yeah, I feel very fortunate so far in the last year and a half to have trained almost 50 Ukraine border guards. And I was able to go to meet with their administration and their main forensic center in June to do a needs assessment to see how we could keep supporting. to make sure we weren't duplicating efforts from other international organizations or other bilateral initiatives there because we do know it's a crowded space there. 00:09:28    JACK GAINES I'm sure talking to them, you could figure out pretty quickly what those border guards needed, even if they were getting training from two or three organizations, if they weren't hitting it on the head. Yeah. And what was nice for us is we were able to actually shadow them on their train from out west as entered from. 00:09:38    COLLEEN RYAN was nice for us is we were able to actually shadow them on their train from out west as entered from. Shamashil, Poland, and went to Lviv. And so we got to board on the Ukrainian side and just seeing what they're dealing with in terms of doing document checks aboard the trains now and the different challenges they have with that as opposed to what it would be like to check a document at the airport. It's a very different perspective and it gives you insights on things like lighting and being able to see different security features in the passport. With the lighting on the train and the time of day when they're doing the document check, the technical equipment that they have aboard and that may not be connecting to the cell tower or have service as the train moves. And so it gives you a different perspective to actually be there and see it instead of just hearing about it over a Zoom call or in a sterile training environment. And so then building on that. We've been able to take some of those lessons learned and put them into our training where we're encouraging them and reminding them to say, hey, how would you see this in different types of light settings, running different types of simulations, so it more accurately reflects the conditions that they'll be doing the document checks in. So what's coming up next? 00:10:57    JACK GAINES What's the future of training? Do you have anything interesting coming up that you want to promote? 00:11:02    COLLEEN RYAN Yes, through the rest of the year, we have a couple more study visits. And these are important because they help the border guards to learn from other counterparts. They will look through how this country that they're visiting manages their forgery desk at an airport or in their border service. And it really helps with networking and sharing more information in terms of what they're seeing in terms of detecting trends or alerts on forged documents. We've got a couple of study visits coming up next week. I'll be in Madrid with another group from Ukraine. The following week, I'll be with Albania and Milan. And then a week after that, I'll be in Dublin, Ireland with forensic experts from Ukraine's border service to round out the year. So it's a busy stretch right now. That's very cool. 00:11:50    JACK GAINES Do these multinational engagements, do they ever end up with countries with border guards doing a bilateral agreement on border protection? Or do they ever work on... building something like Eurogest, where if they find a forger from multiple countries, they'll work together to try to find out where the route is. Is that multinational cooperation starting to build, or have you seen it? 00:12:14    COLLEEN RYAN On a smaller level with us, we do see that. So at the operational level with these border guards, even in -country, being able to message colleagues around their own country. Or the experts that do our trainings are active document experts serving in their border service. So now they've got another resource, say, if we're using experts from Spain or the Netherlands or UK or Italy, then these trainees now have another resource to flag potential trends and forge documents or to ask questions if they're unsure. And then, you know, moving ahead, we'll be looking to do some more joint training between two or three countries. Especially if we do it with bordering countries, it will really help that collaboration to, say, connect the two participating states. And now they've got operational contacts to ping across the border to say, hey, we're seeing this. What are you seeing? Things like that. So it's a good opportunity for us to foster that collaboration and increase the information sharing with us through the training or study visits. Right. Because it's so important to have that contact. 00:13:23    JACK GAINES to have that contact. It's one thing when you see an issue and you want to reach out and you have to make that cold call and figure out who's the right person. It's better if you've made a contact, you know someone from training, you can just say, hey, what's this and what's going on? And they can just plug you in with the right person and then Zoom. You know, a problem's fixed versus making it a whole, oh, you have to talk to our embassy and our embassy has to write our embassy. And so it's great that those kind of cross -border contacts are being made because. Even though so much of Europe is dominated by the Schengen, there's still issues with legal immigration and criminal movement that each country still monitors what's going on and partners. And then those that are outside the Schengen zone, it's just as important for them to actually have that contact so they can partner and work on things to quickly spot forgeries, theft, criminal activity, then stop it before it becomes rampant. So that's awesome. 00:14:22    COLLEEN RYAN And it's just it's it's the first building block of really increasing that cooperation, especially with your neighboring state and contributing towards that angle of integrated border management and jointly managed VCP. So even being able to have frontline document inspectors from two neighboring countries being able to reach out, that's just your first building block to building that relationship. So, yeah, it's always useful to have those contacts. Must be fun to be in the middle of it. Yeah. And it's really rewarding. To get your group of border officers on day one, you've got 20 to 30 border officers from all across their country, wherever we're training, they're virtual strangers, and to see them learn to open up and engage and to learn from our experts and then start to share some of their challenges with me and to build those relationships, whether it's in a group or with our experts or with OSCE, it's super rewarding because then you just get to keep building from there and asking, okay, what's next? What do you need next in addition to these document trainings? What do your forensic experts need or what do your border control officers need? So, yeah, it's really rewarding to be able to deliver when you've got the funding and you've got the interest of participating states and to help them manage their borders better. 00:15:37    JACK GAINES You know, we kind of forgot to talk about who OSCE is, Organization for Security Cooperation in Europe. You want to give me a brief overview of what the organization is? Yes. But it does. 00:15:50    COLLEEN RYAN Yeah. So the OSCE is world's largest regional security organization, the state of 57 participating states. And we operate on a consensus -based approach where all participating states have to agree. And we utilize an approach of comprehensive security. And so this really helps us to support our participating states in developing. their security sector and to enhance resilience and to develop capacity to address transnational threats. So my border security management unit is situated within the Transnational Threats Department. So that's our goal is to help participating states build their capacity to confront a wide array of transnational threats that can harm their national security and pan security more broadly. Right. Now, when I think security, I think of NATO. 00:16:38    JACK GAINES I think of NATO. So you've got to be a little different. NATO is, of course, a military organization that deals with security from conflict, either deterrence or response to conflict or crisis, disaster. What is it that OSCE does in terms of security? 00:16:55    COLLEEN RYAN Our three dimensions are political, military, economic and environmental, and human dimension. So what you would traditionally think of as human rights. And so being able to take that comprehensive approach opens up. a library of opportunities for us in terms of what we can provide support on. And so my unit's mandate stems from our border security management concept that the OSC Ministerial Council adopted in 2005. So our mandate in terms of border security is pretty broad. And I think our bread and butter really is helping to develop capacity of our participating states and providing technical assistance. I mean, our unique added value is that we can provide this tailored approach and we're pretty responsive when participating states do approach us with needs. So it's a bit different from NATO since we're not providing military support. We're looking at long -term institutional capacity buildings, whether it's in border security, policing, security sector agencies. That's the core of our work. And can you talk about what the application process was like to get involved? It's different for each job. So OSC, you either have secondments, like when I am on, where your national authority nominates you, or you have the professional contract where OSC directly hires you. So for mine, I had to apply through my seconding authority in the U .S., and I was competing amongst the Americans who wanted to be nominated. And so then once I got past that, then the U .S. put my name forward in the process, and then it was straight into the OSC hiring process. It's a written exam, and then it was an oral interview, and then it's shortlisted, and you go from there. But if it's a contracted offer, obviously you skip the secondment stage of it, and it's applying straight to OSC in the typical HR process. So it's a little different. You just have to look at the job posting and if it's a secondment or not. 00:19:01    JACK GAINES They give you a salary. 00:19:02    COLLEEN RYAN Do they give you a housing allowance? 00:19:02    JACK GAINES give you a housing allowance? 00:19:04    COLLEEN RYAN Yeah, it's about when I was paying in the U .S. The really fun expense was moving my cats over. So that it's a week in a housing allowance. But it's different for contracted. So it really just depends on which job you're going for, contracted or second. 00:19:22    JACK GAINES Had you traveled internationally before you joined this position? 00:19:26    COLLEEN RYAN Yeah, I had traveled quite a bit. Back when I was still a police officer, I liked to take my leave time to go over to Europe. So I did travel a bit. But never officially. It was always first travel. It was always tourist travel. Yeah, no, I had very, very little duty travel as a cop. 00:19:43    JACK GAINES But I bet that travel helped with your application to say, yeah, I've been to Europe and I've toured around, even though I was a tourist. 00:19:50    COLLEEN RYAN Yeah, and travel is just a great educator. And I know it's expensive and not everyone can do it. Travel just gives you good life experience, especially if you're doing it solo and traveling in Europe and interacting with different cultures and just finding your way and being able to navigate and step outside of your American comfort zone. If you're looking to work internationally, in addition, obviously, to the job experience and language and whatnot, travel is just such a good educator and a good way to end your horizons. Right. And I'll tell you what, traveling and living someplace, 00:20:23    JACK GAINES living someplace, It's a whole new experience because you learned the trains when you traveled, but now you got to find out, get a lease and what that takes. 00:20:32    COLLEEN RYAN Yeah. And then if you don't speak German or you don't speak the local English, that adds another layer of complexity. So yeah, you're absolutely right. The difference between living somewhere and traveling is huge. 00:20:43    JACK GAINES But it's fun. And actually, once you've lived overseas, you start to do quirky things, I find. Like, I'll travel and I'll go to a grocery store just to see how they do their business there. Yeah. You know, you go to restaurants, but see how laundry is done or, you know, just how the public services are done because you think, man, if I had to live here, I'd have to drag my trash to the backyard this time. Or over here, they take it on the street or the Germans, they have to have a lockbox. 00:21:12    COLLEEN RYAN What's been really interesting for me is my American friends hear me speak now and they think I'm starting to lose my accent and I can't tell where I'm from or I'll... interact with Europeans over here and they can't quite pick up on my American accent and I think I'm from the UK or Ireland or Australia. So that's been a really interesting experience because I don't think about it. I just talk and just the little things that come when you're living abroad. 00:21:37    SPEAKER_00 Okay. I think we got everything we wanted. Is there anything left that you want to draw on the table? 00:21:44    COLLEEN RYAN As I've mentioned, I firmly believe that any type of security cooperation, defense cooperation is built on relationships and trust. And so there's two of the Ukrainians in particular that I've become close with because they joined our training last year. And then this year they served as trainers for us and they've joined a few study visits. And so through that, we've developed trust and become friends. So now it's gotten to a point where they know I'm a huge Swifty. Oh, no. 00:22:14    SPEAKER_01 no. 00:22:16    COLLEEN RYAN You're a Swifty? Yeah. 00:22:16    SPEAKER_01 a Swifty? 00:22:19    COLLEEN RYAN So they'll ask, oh, what's the Taylor Swift song we should listen to for this trip? Or what's your favorite Taylor Swift song these days? And it's just a funny example of how this all starts with just building those relationships and getting people's trust when you're working with your partner nations. Sure. 00:22:38    SPEAKER_01 I thought maybe you brought Taylor Swift to the border and you couldn't get her across. 00:22:44    COLLEEN RYAN No, but I did give them Taylor Swift friendship bracelets when I was in Ukraine in June. 00:22:50    SPEAKER_01 Oh my gosh. I was going to say, next time you see them, they'll be like, hey, still have my Taylor Swift. They had them in London last week, so they still have them. 00:22:57    COLLEEN RYAN week, so they 00:23:02    SPEAKER_01 They probably feel obligated, like I can't take it off. She'll think less of me. 00:23:10    SPEAKER_01 It was quite funny. Cool. 00:23:14    SPEAKER_01 But yeah, you're right. It's those relationships, right? You build them and then you can reach out and the people are there. It's so much easier than a cold call. So much easier. That's half the job. 00:23:25    COLLEEN RYAN On one hand, you can joke about Taylor Swift, but then on the other, they can come to you with more training needs or more requests for specific areas of engagement. 00:23:34    SPEAKER_01 Yeah, they know they're safe to do it. Yeah, exactly. By just talking to you. Yeah. 00:23:39    SPEAKER_01 Well, cool. Okay. Well, I got it. And I will say just one more thing that I should mention. 00:23:43    COLLEEN RYAN I will say just one more thing that I should mention. I'm able to do all this work because I'm very lucky that the U .S. mission has fully funded my project and recognize the importance of OSCE as a multilateral line of effort to strengthen international security and broaden our engagement. Honestly, the amount of funding they've given me has been a huge boost and really made this work possible. So I feel like I have to give them a shout out here. 00:24:11    SPEAKER_01 Cool. All right, Coley. Well, thanks a bunch. All right.

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  24:51
• 212: Christopher Meyer on PRC strategic corruption and political warfare (Part II)

  Today, Sam Cooper, founder of the news outlet The Bureau, guest hosts Christopher Meyer, a former U.S. official and China expert during the Bush One and Two Administrations. Meyer currently serves as the head of the U.S. Micronesia Council and founded Wide Fountain, a platform for in-depth geopolitical analysis.  In this the second of a two-part episode, Sam and Christopher discuss PRC strategic corruption and political warfare. So, let's get started.  Sam Cooper's The Bureau: https://www.thebureau.news/ Christopher Meyer's Wide Fountain platform: https://widefountain.substack.com/ --- One CA is a product of the civil affairs association a and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership. We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.  To contact the show, email us at [email protected]  or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org --- Great news! Feedspot, the podcast industry ranking system rated One CA Podcast as one of the top 10 shows on foreign policy. Check it out at: https://podcast.feedspot.com/foreign_policy_podcasts/ --- Special thanks to Cozy Ambience for a sample of "February Cafe Jazz - Instrumental Bossa Nova Music for Work, Study and Relax - Background Music" retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmq8Ht-sNwQ --- Today, Sam Cooper, founder of the news outlet The Bureau, guest hosts Christopher Meyer, a former U.S. official and China expert during the Bush One and Two Administrations. Meyer currently serves as the head of the U.S. Micronesia Council and founded Wide Fountain, a platform for in-depth geopolitical analysis.  In this the first of a two-part episode, Sam and Christopher discuss PRC strategic corruption and political warfare. So, let's get started.  Sam Cooper's The Bureau: https://www.thebureau.news/ Christopher Meyer's Wide Fountain platform: https://widefountain.substack.com/ --- One CA is a product of the civil affairs association a and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership. We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.  To contact the show, email us at [email protected]  or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org --- Special thanks to Cozy Ambience for a sample of "February Cafe Jazz - Instrumental Bossa Nova Music for Work, Study and Relax - Background Music" retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmq8Ht-sNwQ --- Transcript 00:00:01    Introduction Welcome to the One CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. One CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at [email protected]. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www.civilaffairsassoc.org. I'll have those in the show notes. Today we welcome Sam Cooper, founder of the news outlet The Bureau, as he interviews Christopher Meyer, a former U.S. 00:00:44    SAM COOPER official and China expert during the Bush I and II administrations. Meyer currently serves as the head of the U.S. Micronesia Council and is the founder of Wide Fountain. a platform for in -depth geopolitical analysis. This is the first of a two -part episode. Sam and Christopher discuss PRC strategic corruption and political warfare. So let's get started. 00:01:07    SAM COOPER Today I'm excited to introduce Chris Myers. Chris is a longtime China expert and former U .S. government diplomatic and economic issues officer, and he explains how military intelligence and influence networks embedded deeply with organized crime are a central feature of the global strategy employed by the families that really are running communist China. And when I say that, we're going to discuss your research on the family of Xi Jinping, the Xi family, and you call it the Yezi clique. But first, tell our viewers your background in getting into China and your career. 00:01:46    CHRISTOPHER MEYER Thank you very much, Sam. I started a keen interest in China when I was 16. And I read the history of the opium wars and I was outraged. And I decided I wanted a career to be involved in business and diplomacy between the U .S. and China. And then as an undergrad student, I did research on the special economic zones. This was in the early 80s and the special economic zones were just announced. And my research led me to see the geopolitical aspects. There were some. across from Macau, across from Hong Kong, and across from Taiwan. So I sort of had an eye to that. And then I did business. I was, for five years, I was with a Fortune 500 company. And I had the opportunity to do some business in Xiaomon. And I saw some things that set off alarm bells in my mind. And I kind of filed that. And I had some experiences that informed my research later. I worked in the government in Bush 1 and Bush 2. I was involved in Indo -Pacific affairs. really helping American companies do business in the region, and then became a consultant to part of the government that administered our territories in the Pacific. So I saw some things there that, again, set off alarm bells in my mind. And in 2016, I happened to cross an old colleague who kind of gave me some more information. And basically from 2016 until 2022, I conducted a lot of independent research. I decided I wanted to know exactly what was going on because proxies in the region seemed emboldened to take on the U .S. And they didn't have a government portfolio, but they acted like they did. And so my research sort of started in Micronesia. I had the great opportunity to come across your book. You totally informed. parts of what I was looking at and kind of put the spotlight on what happened in Canada. And I kind of worked the two sides to the middle and conducted most recently research that kind of takes us from Mao Zedong's death until the 90s. And I believe that there was a click. I call it the yes, she click. There were scores to settle. There were powerful families that were on the cusp of greatness or recognition for all their good work, and they were purged. And it led some individuals to become extremely militant in their conduct of political warfare against the U .S. So that sort of sets the table for what we might be talking about. 00:04:28    SAM COOPER Yeah. So to get into this, let's start with the Ye family. They're mysterious, but for experts, they're very clearly a clan that has tremendous kingmaking power in China. So maybe let's start with who they are and then bridge into how they connect with Xi's father. 00:04:46    CHRISTOPHER MEYER So the patriarch, Lie Jianying, was literally the kingmaker of Mao Zedong. He came from Guangdong province, and he was involved in the very earliest movements of the Communist Party in China. And he fled one of those, I think it was the Guangzhou uprising, with Zhou Enlai, and they escaped to Hong Kong. So Ye Jianying is one of the original revolutionaries in China, and he had the title of Marshal Ye. And when he crossed paths with Mao Zedong, he was actually the aide -de -camp to a very powerful Communist Party operator out of Beijing who had an army of tens of thousands. And he rolled up to Mao and his very small group of long marchers and said, follow us, we're going to Sichuan province. And Mao was like, no, I don't think that's a safe bet. The locals are going to tear you up. And Ye Jianying kind of heard a truth in Mao and he deserted this powerful general and with him brought the code books. So Mao gets Ye Jianying and the code books and he's able to communicate with the Comintern. And lo and behold, that general did get wiped out in Sichuan. He returned to Mao's base. With a few thousand troops from then, Mao became the most powerful leader in the communist ecosystem. So Ye Jianying had a very high regard for Mao. Mao called him the savior of the Communist Party and the Communist Revolution. And so fast forward it right through the revolution. Ye gets a very top position as the party secretary for Guangdong province, the largest and economically most powerful province in the country. And Mao wants to conduct his land reform in Guangdong, just as he does everywhere. And it's a violent thing where landowners are hunted down and put to death. Yeah, because he was a native Cantonese, understood that the landowners in Guangdong were not of the same ilk as those throughout China. They actually worked the lands. They had a very cooperative relationship with labor. And he tried to resist. But Mao forced Lin Biao into Guangdong. And Ye lost his government role. And if he hadn't been in the military, he would have been completely out of power. But because he had a military portfolio, he was able to stay on the peripheries. And he was actually part of the small group that brought down the Gang of Four and ended the Cultural Revolution. So Ye Jianying went through the Mao Zedong grinder, but he did it so early in the 50s that he was able to... maintain power and have it going forward. Another Long March hero was Xi Jinping's father, Xi Zhong Chun. And his claim to fame in the Communist Party was he maintained security over the area where Mao was camped in Yan 'an. And he was able to provide Mao and his group with enough security that they could camp there through a winter and survive. Not only that, but he negotiated and he conducted diplomacy with the tribesmen in the Northwest, in Qinghai, in Xinjiang, and in Tibet. And he was loved. And he got a lot of rebels and insurgents among these minority populations to join the Communist Party. And Mao gave him great profs for that and referred to him as one of the heroes of the Three Kingdoms period. brilliant statesman who was able to ingratiate with the minorities and make them part of the Chinese nation. Unfortunately, though, Xi Jinping's father, Xi Zhongchun, he was purged, but he was purged later. He was purged in 1962. And from Xi Jinping's age nine until he was 25, Xi Jinping's father was under arrest. Without trial, it was just the culture revolution. He was under arrest because his office published a book that was deemed not flattering to Mao Zedong. Basically, he was promoting some thought within the Communist Party that Mao didn't like. So Xi's father is in jail from 62 to 78. And because Ye Senior and Xi Zhongchun had a relationship, Ye Jianying kind of became a godfather of sorts for Xi Jinping. Xi was sent to work in the countryside and he escaped and he tried to get back to Beijing and it wasn't safe for him to be reunited with his family. And Ye intervened. And Ye made sure that Xi joined the Communist Party, even though these tragedies were all around him, and made sure that he got the semblance of an education, although he really never did. He was a guide for Xi Jinping throughout his younger years. in place of his father. 00:10:02    Sam Cooper Before we continue how those families dovetail together, can you describe in China's political economy, what is the power of Marshal Ye? 00:10:13    CHRISTOPHER MEYER So in the 50s, he was jettisoned out of the political arena. His main work was in the PLA. He was a marshal and he became minister of defense in China. And he was responsible for procurement. And to sort of give you a sense, when the Korean War started, the United Nations put a blockade on trade with China because they were arming the North Korean army. Marshal Yeh was responsible for making sure that supplies got to North Korea. And that was a big role that he fulfilled. And his sons kind of brought that along. So it's curious because Marshal Yeh was one of the most powerful stars in the communist lineup, but he was also a minority. He was from Guangdong and he was a Haka Chinese. So some people would say that Haka Chinese within China, there's a lid sometimes on their ability to move up. And so perhaps he was never considered for the echelon, but he did arise very high. But in some ways, and his sons adopted this even more so, they had to become very combative. in their political dealings. But no doubt about it, Marshal Yeh had a chance to handle huge volumes of military supplies, and there was an opportunity to skim and generate great wealth, which probably was the case. The way that Marshal Yeh fulfilled the supply chains for the North Korean army was through organized crime. And it just happened that two of The individuals, Henry Falk and Stanley Ho, were also Hakka Chinese. And they became the kingpins of organized crime in Hong Kong and Macau. Both of them are on record as saying they made their fortunes supplying the Korean War. 00:12:15    SAM COOPER Right. So people that read my book are very familiar with Stanley Ho, according to U .S. government intelligence. the absolute king of Chinese international mafia with connectivity to casinos, banking, political influence operations in Canada, triad leadership in Canada. So I think we've set the table for the 90s in Guangdong, Fujian. Xi Jinping is now starting to come on the scene politically there. The Ye family, who were partners essentially of Xi's father. had a little bit of a godfather eye on Xi's movements within the party. We can say that they're the power behind a throne that they want to see continue to rise. So can you take us into the 90s, the sort of Stanley Ho connectivity to Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference and how that combines the Hong Kong tycoons slash triad leaders with the communist powers in Fujian? 00:13:21    CHRISTOPHER MEYER Yes. Mao passed away in 78. Deng Xiaoping came to power. And Deng was all about economic reform and catching up to the West. So in southern China, Fujian and Guangdong province, Deng looked to Ye Jenying and his sons. His sons were in their 30s now. And he also looked to Xi Zhongshan. Xi Zhongshan became party secretary for Guangdong province. in the early 80s. And Deng kind of put together this group. The Ye's and the Xi's were family friends. They celebrated Chinese holidays together. The Xi's were northern Chinese, but they kind of encamped in Guangdong province after a certain amount of time. And that's where Xi's father retired. But in Guangdong, the son of Ye, his name was Ye Xuanping. Basically, he was mayor of Guangzhou and the governor of Guangdong. And very quickly, he was referred to as the emperor of the south. So in the 80s, he was running Guangdong province. And he became so powerful that the CCP sought to have him step down. And he actually threatened to withhold tax to Beijing from the province of Guangdong unless they negotiated with him. He wanted a vice chair of the CPPCC, the Chinese People's Political Consultative Committee. And he wants to be a vice governor of the CPPCC. And he wanted to be allowed to maintain his power base in Guangdong. And this is a rare case where the CCP actually deferred to these wishes. Just to get him out of running the most powerful province in China, they said okay. So he goes over the CPPCC. And he takes with him the kingpins of organized crime in Hong Kong and Macau. Stanley Ho never had a position, but Henry Falk and the other top lieutenants in these organized crime entities all wound up on the CPPCC. And to give you a sense of like, what was some of the magic Stanley Ho had when he won the monopoly on gaming in Macau? He devised this VIP room concept where... He owned the casino, but the VIP rooms were run by basically triads and junkets, powerful friends from mainland China and triads. And the triads conducted all kinds of crime that the Vancouver model got in a very big dose. So it was racketeering and prostitution and all kinds of things, but also collections. So Stanley Ho didn't have to work on collections because his muscle did it for him. But the strongest of these triad operators wound up in the CPPCC, as long as they were effective in what they were doing for the government. And 14K is dominated by Hakka Chinese. Most of the most powerful triads have a very strong Hakka element to it. And I don't mean to suggest that this wonderful race of Chinese called Hakkas is all bad. Lee Kuan Yew, the premier of Singapore, was Hakka Chinese. phenomenal Chinese, but there were also some very nefarious and very effective in their criminal activities that were Haka Chinese. So the Ye's were in the middle of this. And Chinese language social media accounts in Hong Kong will talk about the Ye's dominance over these gaming operators in Macau. 00:17:07    SAM COOPER Let's get into that and explore that more. I just want to ask a side question. As I'm aware of a very important figure, in what we call the Hoag Commission in Canada. I'm just going to leave it at that. This is our inquiry into foreign interference that stemmed from my investigative reporting. And there is a politician at the center of that that my sources close to them said went off to a haka conference in China for weeks or something like that, you know, while being an elected politician in Canada. Knowing what you know, and I'm just coming out of the blue with this question, is there anything good for Canada that they could be doing on that trip? 00:17:45    CHRISTOPHER MEYER There could be a lot of normal cultural activity, but I'll say one thing, that the powers that are doing the kinds of things that I'm concerned with are definitely represented in those groups. There might be a wink and a nod and things look very normal on the surface, but there's no free lunch in China. Everybody has to pay the piper, and the piper is the communist party of China. 00:18:11    SAM COOPER So let me ask you this. Viewers of the Bureau know that I've pressed away in journalism in explaining that the United Front Work Department and international money laundering and organized crime are synonymous. They're one and the same. The CIA says the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference is really the core unit of the United Front. So what you're getting at... I think the Ye family, these power brokers that are behind Xi and his power in southern China, you're saying they essentially formed this United Front and organized crime compact as sort of a political tool, a smuggling tool, a military tool? 00:18:55    CHRISTOPHER MEYER Yes. And I want to say that the United Front was an early Communist Party creation. And the thing about the Communist Party... They infiltrated the Kuomintang. When the Kuomintang had more power and they were the power base in China, the communists used political warfare to infiltrate them and really become their undoing. And the United Front is basically one way to get all parts of society under the control of the CCP. So within the United Front, the CPPCC is sort of the big leagues. And all the other organizations are the feeder groups. So if you get in a small united front group and you deliver in a big way, you can get promoted all the way to this PCC. And Ong Lapsung is an example of that. So the whole idea of the united front is to harness and control all the resources from academia, the private sector. from all aspects of society and to make them work for the Communist Party. And I feel that any united front operation, and there's so many in Canada and the U .S., they should just be called assets of the Chinese government. That's one way for the Chinese to increase their headcount of diplomatic officers within any given country. 00:20:26    Close Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at [email protected]. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U.S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes of One CA Podcast.   Episode 2 00:00:01    Introduction Welcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at [email protected]. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www.civilaffairsassoc.org. I'll have those in the show notes. Today we welcome Sam Cooper, founder of the news outlet The Bureau, as he interviews Christopher Meyer, a former U .S. 00:00:44    Introduction official and China expert during the Bush 1 and 2 administrations. Meyer currently serves as the head of the U .S. Micronesia Council and is the founder of Wide Fountain. a platform for in -depth geopolitical analysis. This is the second of a two -part episode. Sam and Christopher discuss PRC strategic corruption and political warfare. So let's get started. 00:01:08    SAM COOPER I feel that any United Front operation, and there's so many in Canada and the U .S., they should just be called assets of the Chinese government. That's one way for the Chinese to increase their headcount of diplomatic officers within any given country. And they should be labeled that way and they should be treated that way. And they're conducting operations for China. So to get back to the Ye family, I just want to say very briefly, so Deng Xiaoping taps the older brother, Ye, and he's in the government and he has a nine, 10 -year run in Guangdong. The younger brother, his name is Ye Xuanning. He's the dangerous one. He's a real interesting cat. So, yeah. was in college during the Cultural Revolution. And just to give you an idea of the thin ice that you could be skating on in China, he graduated from college and he was thrown in jail. And he was thrown in jail because, you know, Mao wanted to send a signal to the Ye family, I'm in control here. You're not in control. He got out of jail and he had a job in a radio factory or something like that. And he must have been so distraught, he lost his arm in an accident. throwing boxes into a crusher and he lost his arm. So he became a calligrapher with his left hand. And if you know Chinese, like every time you write calligraphy, your hand is going across what you're writing. If you're left -handed, I don't know how he did it. I'm left -handed. And he became an accomplished calligrapher with his left hand. So it just gives you a sense of the spirit of this guy. He's not your normal. person. I think he was a genius. I think he was extremely hardworking. And one of his first positions, he was involved in a small United Front operation in Beijing. Then he became secretary for Kang Xian, who was sort of the head of the oil faction in China. And he was a very powerful individual. And then he found himself in Guangdong. And when his brother was appointed head of the province and the city of Guangzhou, He got into Espionade, and he became the spymaster for the PLA, working in the GDP. And he really had it. He sort of hit his stride there, and that's how he ended his career. The spymaster for the PLA. I think any other rival couldn't even hold a candle to him. He was totally gifted. And his brother and he were able to leverage all of their... contacts with organized crime because he used them in operations around the world. And I think he's the one who weaponized it to the point where, number one, organized crime figures were making money for the military, a lot of it. And number two, they were almost pre -trained in operations. They were bold. They would go anywhere and do anything. And Aung La Pseung is a good example of that. 00:04:11    CHRISTOPHER MEYER I was going to say, because not everyone knows these names like you and I do, but Enlap Sang, nominally a real estate developer from Macau. My Files, he's a huge international organized crime figure known for the so -called Clinton Gate or White House visits. He's the guy that got next to the Clinton White House or got inside, you know, maybe five to ten times. He ends up getting done, as they say, in a United Nations corruption case, which of course connects to a very important guy in Australia that successfully sued my colleague, John Garneau, and yet is at the top of Chinese organized crime funding Australian politics. He was involved in that FBI case. So to bring it back, what I've picked up in my book and in my repeated reporting efforts at the Bureau is these international Chinese businessmen in real estate and casinos, tech these days, they go around the world, they get next to our politicians, and that's their job. They're being tasked by whoever the Ye family spymaster of today is, is sending them abroad to do that. At some point, Xi Jinping comes into this and says it's okay. 00:05:30    SAM COOPER okay. And it's still evolving. I mean, I came on to this. When I read your book and I saw your story of Lai Changxin, I said, holy shit, I have to get into this. You see the level of danger that it brings to a country like Canada and North America. But I think that Ye Xuen Ning created the mechanism for the CCP to use and leverage organized crime to, 00:05:51    SAM COOPER mechanism for the CCP to use and leverage organized crime to, number one, fund military operations. and other things, and to extend influence operations. Like the United Front is all about influence operations. But if you introduce organized crime elements into parts of the United Front, you can weaponize it and you can get a lot more bang for your buck using these nefarious creatures that you're managing, you're controlling them. And I want to mention something. How does the CCP have control over organized crimes? So I want to say, In the late 90s, Macau No. 1 was about to be returned from Portuguese administration to Chinese. And 2, the kind of monopoly of the casinos license was coming up in 2002. And what happened was these triad operators were starting to push back against Stanley Ho. Stanley Ho's right -hand man was shot in the face in Victoria Park during this period. And the Portuguese sent an official to try to calm down the situation. And that individual was shot when he arrived. And the Communist Party kind of went in and took control. When the monopoly came up, Stanley Ho and his family, they got the coverage. But that's because he's completely loyal to the CCP. And so the CCP has so much leverage over these entities. Completely, he devised the strategy to integrate organized crime. And then he passed away in 2016. And then the institutional steps took place after that. They had to transfer from sort of a control of one man to the government running it. And you can see examples around 2016 of a lot of large -scale Chinese operations having disruption during this period. One of the reasons they were able to do this for so long was that Ye Xuanning was completely secretive. I mean, he managed these operations in a very keen and brilliant way, and he was never identified. Xi Jinping's role is interesting. Ye Xuanning told his brothers to help Xi Jinping. And you can kind of see like an increase in their efforts when Xi's father... He was in Beijing, and he had a very high role. He pulled a bureau standing committee, and he was sent down because of Tiananmen. He was on the reformer side, and he publicly admitted it. He was a very admirable individual, and he said he was supporting Hua Guofeng. So he faced early retirement in 1993, and the Ye brothers were so upset about this, and probably Xi too. They sort of doubled down on their efforts on behalf of this political warfare. It's almost as if they were pissed off at the Communist Party, but they took it out on North America. It's like they had to become more radical in what they were doing because in order to get power in China, you had to outflank Li Peng and the hardliners. So there's an interesting element there. 00:09:13    CHRISTOPHER MEYER You talk about this combination of military intelligence and organized crime. and political warfare and global influence operations. Trade is obviously involved. Explain what you mean by radicalization of that tool in operations. 00:09:31    SAM COOPER So there were about 10 operations in the 1990s that I believe were masterminded by the Yeshi Clay and primarily Yeshi Ning. The most outrageous, there was one and probably several. smuggling of military -grade machine guns into the U .S. from China. And one of the groups that was set up, helped finance the military, was the Poly Group. And the Poly Group, they were on the bill of lading for these. They were labeled as something else, but they came into the port of Oakland. And the interesting thing was the CEO of Poly Group, who was a princeling himself, was meeting in the White House and had his photo taken with President Clinton. At the time, these machine guns were on the water. That's bold. Yes. And when I ponder this, it's like I know how much the Chinese love photographs. That photo shown by Xi Jinping to all the cronies in Beijing would get him a lot of brownie points. And these machine guns were being distributed to gangs in the area. Street gangs in California. So this kind of thing, right? Right. And so that one was uncovered. But how many others slipped by? And there have been cases similar magnitude in Tennessee and Florida. 00:10:57    CHRISTOPHER MEYER Yeah, and this is where it gets into the leaked Sidewinder report that I touched on in the book. But yeah, that report refers to Pauley Group laundering 2 ,000 AK -47s into California. You're saying you believe that not only is Xi Jinping supported by this Ye family intelligence, who I have no problem believing are behind the United Front organized crime nexus. You're saying you think Xi Jinping is a mind involved in this kind of thing as well. 00:11:30    SAM COOPER Originally, as I was doing my research, I thought Xi was the mastermind. But as I did a deep dive to what his contemporaries said of him, The big knock on Xi was that he wasn't educated. Like age nine to age 25, his dad has been persecuted and locked up without trial. And he's forced to work in the countryside and he's not happy about it. I mean, he wasn't educated. And that's the biggest knock on Xi Jinping. And when you look at the history of Xi in Fujian, first of all, he goes to the Ministry of Defense and then doesn't do... anything of note there as a young man. But then he goes into Hebei province and he's working in Hebei province as a middle level provincial official. And he's not doing much. I mean, his big contribution was suggesting that they film a TV show in that province and kind of burned out. He wasn't favored by the Communist Party officials there. You know, he's brought to Fujian. Communist Party officials bounce around provinces and each time they have an increasing role. Well, he stays in Fujian for 17 years. And it's almost like he's being babysat by the Yehs. And I mean, the Yeh family compound was a two and a half hour drive from where she was in Fujian. And so I don't think he was the mastermind, but he was definitely the beneficiary. And I think that it was a long term project. And the Yeh brothers. put the pieces on the table to help promote Xi Jinping. And here's an interesting thing. In 1997, there was a big Central Party conclave, the 15th Central Party plenary meeting. And Ye wasn't even named as an alternate delegate. So you've got hundreds of delegates coming from all over the country. And he's a princeling. And he's been in provincial government for 12 years. And he's not even named. Somebody forced him onto the list of alternate delegates. There were 150. He was the 151st alternate delegate. He didn't receive one vote. He was pushed on. And I think somebody in the realm said, you know what? We're running all these operations and we're doing it so secretively. Nobody knows that this is for Xi Jinping. So they started gradually to kind of promote Xi as. the mastermind of this. And the years were okay with that. But Xi Jinping was on his way to becoming the leader of China by 2002. 00:14:08    CHRISTOPHER MEYER And I was over in Taiwan, invited by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs over a year ago with international journalists. And we had kind of a dinner talk where their political intelligence expert was going to talk about some of this Klan details and things like that. And they said, yeah, within the princelings, Xi Jinping was the least likely, the least talented to reach chairman. 00:14:37    CHRISTOPHER MEYER And so, OK, you know, I'm not the expert. If someone from Taiwan is telling me that, you're saying that. So if true, and you're saying the power behind the throne is this Ye family that boosts him. And they're the ones you're saying that are the masterminds of what I'm going to call modern political Chinese communist warfare using proxies, organized crime, dirty tycoons. So this is where we're going. 00:15:06    SAM COOPER Yep, this is where we're going. And let me just touch on a few of the operations in the 1990s, just to give you a sense for what was going on and the fact that the Chinese were never completely called out on the carpet for it. Just let them continue doing it. And one of the themes of my research is it's time to call the Chinese out. And to do that, you have to be very specific. I think there needs to be a large group of countries that has their research done and they call out Xi Jinping for this political warfare that absolutely is hyper -destructive. 00:15:41    CHRISTOPHER MEYER So you're saying this is an intelligence operation? Yeah. For the last 10 minutes or so, In direct relationship to this network you're talking about, the 90s, 2000, aggressive combination of international organized crime, Hong Kong tycoons, Macau tycoons, in Chinese military influence operations, also people smuggling, also drug smuggling, illegal migration and, you know, fentanyl. There is a basis that Chinese triads and Mexican cartels are working together on those things and that Canada is a, you could call it, if this is a company, the controlling minds of a lot of this are in Vancouver and Toronto. Canadian ports are very deeply infiltrated by China, along with some Iranian mafia and intelligence. It's a fact. So where do we go from there? I myself, as a Canadian, the good countries of the world need to get together to combat this approaching, if not already into early stages of the access of China, Iran, Russia, North Korea. We're at loggerheads and they're using Canada, I believe, unfortunately. 00:17:01    SAM COOPER Right. And I do believe that Yeshua Ning is a genius and he looked at North America and he wants to inflict pain on the U .S. When he set up these plans in the early 90s, the Chinese GDP was a fraction of the U .S. So he had a lot of ground to make up. And he chose Vancouver because the resources to combat his efforts were probably deemed to be significantly less than the resources in the U .S. So I feel that the attack on Canada, the Vancouver model. if you will, which spread right across to Toronto and then down into Queens and across to LA and permeates everything. I believe that the US and Canada should try to get on the same page about this and to the extent possible, Mexico as well. And then the UK and Australia haven't been unaffected by this. There should be a big effort to get on the same page with the West because this is a totalitarian regime doing its level best to take us out. 00:18:07    CHRISTOPHER MEYER The controlling mind, I'm saying, of the Mexican cartels, I think it's Chinese triads. That's the real power there. 00:18:15    SAM COOPER I think we're both in agreement. If you want to draw a word picture that says what this is, picture that there's a really bad actor and he's throwing a really illegal party and selling drugs and he's bringing it all in. And the U .S. is going after the people who own the land where all of this took place. You have to go after China. And I believe that China is making 98 % of the precursors for fentanyl, and then they're laundering the money. That's the other piece. They're laundering it. They're operating this massive money laundering operation for the cartels. So I say the gloves do come off, but I would love to see them come off in unison. And all of these, at least in North America, Mexico, Canada, and the U .S., we're all on the same page. And we speak with one voice. And I'll add to this. Xi Jinping has been as painful towards his own population as he has been externally and internationally. So he's inflicted pain on the Chinese and he's about to go down. I mean, he's got his wings clipped in the last few months and he may not be in power very long. There's some serious movement in China. 00:19:30    CHRISTOPHER MEYER You sound like my friend Harry Tsang, the ambassador for Taiwan and Ottawa. He's bearish on Xi Jinping in a big way. 00:19:38    SAM COOPER Yeah. Well, I think it's a good time for the West to approach China and say, look, we got off on the wrong foot. Let's reboot. And by the way, there's some reparations needed here. 70 ,000 people have been dying a year from this, and it's a Chinese operation. You know, the cartels are definitely part of it, but... I think there's good reason for the West to get on the same page. 00:20:02    CHRISTOPHER MEYER Absolutely. So we will end it there for a first great chat. And I think next time we'll get into the juicy story of Lai Cheng Zing, the bigot China's supposed most wanted. Or what was he? So I'll leave it at that and we'll pick it up next time. You have to say, 00:20:21    SAM COOPER have to say, I'm sitting there doing my research. I get your book. And all of a sudden, within 50 pages, the lights are going off because you wrote about Lai Changxin and it just completed some thoughts that I was mulling over. And yeah, we're going to have an interesting conversation about Lai Changxin. 00:20:40    CHRISTOPHER MEYER That touches my heart because I've always been a brother of the United States and I've felt so disheartened that bad people have gotten in between us and we have to stop that. And as you say, we need to get together on this. I've reached some good thinkers in the US and there's now things brewing. So let's keep it going. You got it. 00:21:01    Close Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at [email protected]. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field, working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations. Thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes, One CA Podcast.

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