Guest Crom Carmichael and Social Security
☘️ Joel (00:00:00):Today, I'm pleased to host Crom Carmichael. Crom is an entrepreneur, investor, and business leader. He has served as the CEO and board member of Nishai Biotech, and if I said that wrong, I apologize, since 2002.🎤 Crom (00:00:16):Nope, that's exactly right.☘️ Joel (00:00:19):He's a native of South Bend, Indiana, graduated from Vanderbilt University in 1971. Crom has extensive leadership experience and a demonstrated strong commitment to innovation and growth, especially in biotech.Key aspects of your career include you're a founding investor in Serif Group, who provides seed and early stage funding to startups.You sit on the board of multiple companies, and those are all going to be in the written version (including Consensus Point, TrackPoint Systems, Confirmation.com, BancVue, 3SAE Technologies, and The Gardner School).You own an audio program that covers history's most influential thinkers called Giants of Political Thought. And the series fascinatingly outlines the philosophy of governance, including thinking of giants such as Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, John Locke, Adam Smith, and others.And you and Mike Hassell now just started to host a podcast From Our Generation To Yours, where you offer lessons on business, politics, and life for the next generation.Crom, it's great to talk to you today.🎤 Crom (00:01:22):Well, Joel, thanks for having me. I appreciate it very much.☘️ Joel (00:01:26):I really appreciate that you focus so much on philosophy in governance because philosophy informs how and why we think about things.We establish goals based on some hopefully philosophical logic. And we need to orient ourself toward those goals because when we take our eyes or focus off of the goal, we get to start doing things that don't really make sense.I bet we can find common ground with the question, well, I bet we would both answer yes to the question of whether individuals have a duty to prepare for an uncertain future so they aren't a burden on others.I'm fascinated to hear your take on: Do we have a mandate for individuals to prepare for an uncertain future?As in, like a government requirement mandate. Essentially, should we have social security?Do we have a mandate for individuals to prepare for their future? And you have to make the assumption that me paying into Social Security is me funding my own Social Security in the future. I know that is not the way the system works.I know that it's not me paying in because I pay in for someone who's older than me and then somebody younger than me would theoretically pay in for me. But if I don't pay into the system, then I don't get the benefit.🎤 Crom (00:03:02):Right.So Social Security, when it was founded, it was promised to be like an insurance program where the money that you put in would go into your own social security account.And every year people get in the, I get, now I'm on social security and I get a piece in the mail that tells me how much I'm going to get. And I believe that even when you're younger, I believe that you can request and find out what the Social Security system, quote, promises, unquote, to pay you.But the Social Security system, as it actually works today, and you hit it right on the head. You're right on target. The Social Security tax is just simply a tax.The Social Security benefit is a promise that the government makes so long as it's able to keep it.But the money that you pay in, it does not go into an account in your name.It just goes into a Social Security fund that then is used to pay for Social Security and any other general expenses that the government might need the money for.And so the right word for it is, unfortunately, it's a Ponzi scheme.☘️ Joel (00:04:29):So I was going to ask, so some people call it a Ponzi scheme instead of an insurance program or, or however you want to describe it. Um, so you and I agree that it is not, that you put money into a bucket that money grows like the stock market or like a bond or whatever. And then at the retirement age of your life, you have access to that money.You don't ever theoretically own that money.And because you don't own it, some people call it a Ponzi scheme.I don't, I think that institutionally, there's a reason that we created the program and that came out of the Great Depression and people not having enough.So if that is still true, if we eliminated the program, then don't we have an obligation to maintain our commitment to it?🎤 Crom (00:05:34):Well, I mean, you know, Social Security from a political standpoint, I mean, people who have worked all their lives and now everybody who is retired today worked their entire life and paid into the Social Security system.So it is an obligation that the government has based on the promise that the government has made to every American citizen.And the government will keep that promise as long as it can. But the point that you make is that somebody's ability to receive or the government's ability to pay the benefit is what will depend on whether or not the benefit always gets paid.And so what age, I'm 76. And so I've been collecting Social Security for about, let's say seven or eight years. I paid into Social Security for about 45 years. And most people who are collecting Social Security feel that they have earned the money that they are receiving.And the reason that they do is that the people who started receiving Social Security in the 40s and 50s and even in the 60s paid very little into the system compared to the benefits that they were receiving.And so therein lies the Ponzi scheme.☘️ Joel (00:07:04):Sure, yeah.🎤 Crom (00:07:05):It's a little bit like, when I was in college many years ago, if I needed, I may be telling on myself here a bit, but if I needed a few bottles of alcohol I would send out a chain letter. Do you know what a chain letter is?☘️ Joel (00:07:21):Yeah.🎤 Crom (00:07:23):And I would put my name at the top. I'd put three of my friends under me and I'd send out the chain letter to about 100 people that I didn't know and tell them to send a bottle of such and such to the top person on the list and then remove that person, move the second person to the top and put their name on the bottom.And I'd send out 100 of those things, and I would inevitably get three or four bottles of whiskey. And so that's how Social Security worked from the beginning.Now, there was a senator named Senator Clark who offered an amendment to make it so that when people put money into Social Security, that it would actually go into an account in their name in the same way that an IRA works today.And that amendment, it was voted down.☘️ Joel (00:08:19):I wrote a previous idea back in, I think, May of last year. Why doesn't the government give every baby born in America a $100,000 loan when they're born?And over the lifetime of that child, and I understand the math doesn't perfectly work out because there's inflation and the reality of things,but...That individual repays their $100,000 to the government over their lifetime.And then the investment of that grows at some government promised kind of low rate, like 3%.And then at their retirement age, then they get, depending on what year they retire, then they get a benefit of that divided into 30 years.And so then if you don't live long enough, which most people won't because if you retired 65 and your benefits are planned to last till you're 95, then most people just statistically don't live to be 95. Then whatever you didn't earn in that, you still don't own. The government seizes it.And then that funds people who through not necessarily any fault of their own were injured or for whatever reason couldn't work.And so then the program always has full funding because of that.But I understand that there's political consensus that would have to take place for Congress to pass that and change Social Security.But to me, that makes sense that FDR could have when he created the Social Security program. He could have created it to benefit retirees at the time, but then somehow morphed it into a self-funded thing.Because we're going to have generations that are smaller than than previous generations. And like Gen X is smaller than the baby boomers. And so we have a problem now that social security is running out of funding because the baby boomers are a bigger generation than those that follow.And so then there are not enough people in the way that FDR set up, there's not enough people paying into the program.🎤 Crom (00:10:26):Well, yeah, and, you know, your ideas make a great deal of sense as a practical matter.I mean, they make a great deal of sense from a mathematical matter, but as a practical matter, getting Congress to agree to do something like that, I think would probably be giving $100,000 to every baby.I'm not quite sure how that $100,000 would be invested on behalf of that person.And then the problem becomes the politicians as that amount of money, if you even could establish it to begin with. Politicians would see that pool of money and want to do something, do something with it.And that's always been the problem because when Social Security was originally passed, I went back and did a little bit of preparation for this conversation.And the original Social Security tax for the individual was 1% on their first $3,000. So it was $30 a year. And the employer matched that. So the employer also put up $30 a year. And Roosevelt promised that those two numbers would never change. And, of course, that was not true. But he said that in order to get the bill passed.And then the media then reported what Roosevelt said, and the bill got – the Social Security bill got passed.And then as politicians started to see, well, gee, there are a lot of people who are now, and by the way, when Roosevelt passed that bill, average life expectancy was 62 and you didn't start collecting Social Security until you were 65.Well, then over the next 25 years, life expectancy increased to approximately 75 and they actually lowered the year that you could collect Social Security down to 62.And they increased the benefits.And that's because politicians found that if they ran on a platform back in those days of increasing Social Security benefits by 5%, people who were collecting Social Security benefits would vote for them.And so it's unfortunate that we could have an interesting conversation sometime on what the founding fathers, what some of their discussions were, and it's all in the Federalist Papers, by the way, what their discussions were when they were devising the Constitution, what were the principles that they tried to take into account in writing a constitution that they hoped would last for hundreds of years.Please, go ahead.☘️ Joel (00:13:26):It is really interesting to me, the John Locke piece that got lost in the translation between John Locke's philosophy and the Declaration of Independence that Life, liberty, and property, because it was one of John Locke's big things.The role of government is to protect your property. And then Jefferson changed that to Pursuit of Happiness.So I understand the challenge of saying that the government's role is to protect your property, because some people might hear that and say, oh, I don't own a house. I don't own 10 acres or whatever, so I don't have property, and the government promised me property, and so now you are obliged to give me a yard or whatever.That's not what that means.But it does mean that for your body, as an example, you can make decisions about your body. But if your dollars are your property because you work and generate funds from that work, and those funds become your property, then does the government have a responsibility to protect your property? And then that actually ties in with the insurance piece, because if the government does have a responsibility to protect your property, but you're facing an uncertain future, then do you buy an insurance plan to make it so you still have some money at the end of your life or in the instance that you can't work and that insurance would become Social Security?That's an interesting premise that I thought about.🎤 Crom (00:15:04):Back in the 20s, before the Great Depression, back in the 20s, more than half of the American people bought insurance policies in the form of annuities. And that was buying insurance privately that would provide for their retirement.☘️ Joel (00:15:27):So do you think we should still commit to Social Security?Essentially, you and I agree you have a mandate to prepare for an uncertain future.There are different ways that you can do that.How do you think we should get that done? Because we need to probably reform the program so that it's healthy again.🎤 Crom (00:15:52):Well, the government does have. A number of years ago, he federal government passed legislation they passed. And I'm going to I may get this, Joel, slightly wrong, but they provided for people if people wanted to set up IRAs, individual retirement accounts, they could do that if they worked for a company that offered a 401k. Then they could contribute to the 401 , and oftentimes the company matched that amount.And then there's this other thing called Roth IRAs. And I'm not that familiar with any of those in very, very specific detail other than there's lots of tax deferring that goes on in those plans so that they can build.And so for the average, for the regular person, if they work in a company that has a 401k, and the company contributes to that 401k with a matching grant, matching amount of money, I encourage people to put as much as they possibly can in those IRAs if they're matched by the company because that automatically gives them 100% return on that investment.And there's nothing that comes close to that in any other way of investing.☘️ Joel (00:17:22):But I agree, totally agree with the investment vehicles that are there.If it's going to take the place of social security, though, they can't be an elective thing. They have to be mandated, right?Because there will always be people that choose not to invest because they don't have the money, because we talked about low wages a minute ago.And because they don't have the money, they're not going to do it.And then they're going to get to the end of their life. And what do you do?Do you just leave them to die?And the answer is no, you can't. And so if you're going to have people be able to use their 401k as their retirement money, then it can't be optional.🎤 Crom (00:18:10):Well, in the society that we're in today, Social Security is going to exist until it can't. And that would be if you had an economic collapse and the value of money would have to be redefined. That's a possibility.That type of thing has happened throughout history.But for our discussion, for practical purposes, Social Security benefits are going to continue to be paid out because it would be political suicide to call for the elimination of Social Security benefits and exchange it for some other program.And so as long as Social Security benefits are going to be paid out, there would need to be some form of Social Security tax that really forces people who are working and earning money to pay money toward, as you say, the Social Security for the people who are currently retired.So I don't think there's a way out of the Social Security trap, if that's the way that you and I want to describe it, only because it's been around now for close to 90 years.☘️ Joel (00:19:35):Yeah, I don't know that I would call it a trap. I don't know that I would use that term. I would probably say it's a very inefficient vehicle to prepare for your retirement.And anytime we choose to funnel money through the government, you're just going to waste at a minimum 40% of it by people working government jobs.They're going to kind of siphon off that money.And so then by wasting 40% of it, you would have less money than you would if you had invested that money instead.But I don't know that the only way I think that we could change it, and that's an interesting point, if you elected to invest your own money and could prove that through your taxes every year, whether or not you could elect to not pay Social Security.That'd be an interesting point.🎤 Crom (00:20:34):Well, that's why I called it. That's why I referred to it as the Social Security trap.Because if you work and receive a paycheck, your employer is required to take your Social Security tax out of your pay.So it's not a choice that you as a worker, you don't have that choice.You can't say, well, I think I'd rather do this rather than pay the tax. You don't have a choice.☘️ Joel (00:21:01):Yeah, then it gets back to the Edmund Burke thing that institutionally we chose as a nation to do X at this time.And Burke would say we have a commitment to the institution to maintain the viability for people who don't have resources.So...🎤 Crom (00:21:23):Yeah, but it's also just there's a philosophical point, and then there's the practical political point, and that is that if anybody, if any politician ran saying that we're going to take away people's Social Security benefits who don't need the money, I will promise you that that politician will not win the next election.☘️ Joel (00:21:45):Yeah, yeah.🎤 Crom (00:21:47):So the tax will always be there as long as the social security system is viable enough to pay out the benefits.☘️ Joel (00:21:58):Yeah.And I actually, I personally think that we have to have social security or some form of social insurance so that elderly people aren't freezing to death in their apartments.I think that Social security, as it is shaped right now, probably needs reformed so that it better benefits those people.Because, for instance, if you consider the $100,000 loan when you're a baby thing, and then the worker pays that back through their lifetime earnings, you would pay less in social security taxes because you could even make poverty level wages and pay that $100,000 back.And you would almost double your entitlement benefit or your benefit at your retirement age is, I don't want to call it an entitlement at that point because that's an investment that the government made on your behalf when you were born.But I think that it's just something that we need to, we can't get rid of because too many elderly people and people who can't work depend on it.🎤 Crom (00:23:05):Yeah, I would suggest that the biggest area of federal savings is not going to be in Social Security because I would disagree with you just a bit on the cost of administering Social Security is actually relatively low compared to the cost of managing our healthcare system because with Social Security, it's just a formula and they pay it out.☘️ Joel (00:23:38):I really appreciate your time. And thanks for sharing the phone call with me.🎤 Crom (00:23:43):Joel, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.May God bless the United States of America. Get full access to I Believe at joelkdouglas.substack.com/subscribe